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Sry to intrude in your conversation, but OH MY WORD THIS ONE THING REALLY CAUGHT MY EYE:
Anyway, one of the things that really kills it for me is if they just completely skip the friendship stage. It just kinda feels unrealistic to me XD I’m not saying it can’t be done well, but I like seeing them slowly start to respect and then like each other, as opposed to them just… hating each other but still wanting to kiss? Or something?
I absolutely HATE the whole “love at first sight”. Like, how realistic is that? I’ve watched a friend have several “love at first sight” moments, and it made me sad and sick and sorry. She and her boyfriend (they started dating after only a few days knowing each other) would always end their conversation with “I love you” and I always thought, “Yeah, right, this isn’t love! It’s temporary passion.” I tried to talk to my friend but she didn’t want to hear it, and now she’s gone to Germany and her “boyfriend” has completely shut her off. *glares at boyfriend, who I also know*
So, long story short, if there’s going to be romance in a book, make it like Aragorn and Arwen, who took, like, 50 years to cultivate their relationship. XD
*laughs* That sounds like something I would do…
Of course you can join (if you’d like)! Here’s a few questions you can answer, although don’t feel obliged to answer them:
- How old are you?
- What genre do you like to write?
- What would you like to be called?
Hi Joelle,
*bows*
Thank you. Beats just sayin’ “Hello” doesn’t it. 😉
I do agree about the “love at first sight” nonsense. I cannot even begin to count the people that have been harmed by that old “romantic notion”. It definitely is NOT biblical.
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. [1 Corinthians 13:4 NIV]
Sight attraction alone does nothing more than peak an interest, but you cannot truly “love” someone that you never take the time to know without letting desire cloud your judgement and make you myopically blind to any good sense you possessed before “sighting” the “new object” of the affection.
Love has knowledge, patience, gentle and respectful pacing and it protects and has staying power and consistency over time and through a variety of challenges and frustrations. God defines it that way, and I’ll take His definition of it every time over the fake pretending that leads to self-deception, justification and ultimately the realization of being used to build another’s ego.
Trust is earned. Scripture says:
Above all else, guard your heart, for everything you do flows from it. [Proverbs 4:23 NIV]
That is an imperative statement. A charge given to us by God, who gives us individual worth and value that we should never diminish or have to trade to “be/feel/experience love”.
No one has a right to diminish, abuse or disrespect the cherished value placed upon us by Our Creator.
This is why I cannot stomach any of the “world’s” versions of “romance”.
Give me the real, not the shiny fakes that lure people away into losing the sense of their identity, for the sake of [finger quotes] “love”.
1. How old are you? [Ahhh. This is where I am reluctant to reveal because it can carry so many assumptions that might dismiss me entirely… Let’s just say, no one ever guesses how old I am by my appearance, but the Lord has been very kind to me, and my wife is both a corporate lawyer and a Body-Pump fitness instructor, so she makes sure I eat right (organic and what-not) and exercise more frequently than I would like. I am the eldest son of a country-preacher.] You can check my author page on my Excavatia Blog: Click Link Here
2. What genre do you like to write? But my preferences tend to run to Fantasy and Science-Fiction, then Mysteries and High-adventure, and I love psychological thrillers but am finding it difficult to write one.
3. What would you like to be called? “Good and Faithful Servant” [See Matthew 25:21]Brian Stansell (aka O'Brian of the Surface World)
I was born in war.
Fighting from my first breath.I’m actually in the middle of writing an enemies-to-friends arc, which is a lot of fun. I considered making it an enemies-to-lovers arc, but the characters just don’t work together at all. (And there were a lot of personal issues between them. Like, a lot.)
Oh that’s really cool! Yeah I think it’s better to get to know the characters first before making any relationship decisions. If you don’t mind, I’d really love to know more about your two characters 🙂
I think one of the key places where it usually goes wrong is that they take enemies-to-lovers too literally and try to go right from one to the other without a healthy transition. (I think enemies-to-friends-to-lovers is actually a separate trope, but I consider them the same thing XD)
Usually, in the beginning, both characters are just like, “Oh, we’re supposed to be enemies, but I really want to kiss him/her.” So then they get together and that’s it.
I mean… kill the tension, why don’t you?! There’s no fun if there’s no internal conflict.
Yeah I agree, it’s just badly done if there is no logical healthy transition. I plan on making my couples enemies then allies then friends and THEN lovers. But the guy loves her the whole time, he just doesn’t want to admit it XD. And internal conflict is so great, you can’t do a good story without it. Tension is important!!
It’s a lot more fun for the characters to hate each other with all their hearts and have an extremely biased view of the other one but then they both keep repeatedly acting out of the ‘villain’ script and they both start to get a tiny bit of respect and feel like they’re betraying themselves and they do everything to deny it but they finally come together after lots of sarcastic banter and I enjoy that way too much XD (I have never written a sentence that long. That was impressive!) I like seeing characters kick their own feelings XD
I love the idea of love arising from great respect! You definitely just described what my characters are going through, I just can’t wait to get more into their relationship XD
Anyway, one of the things that really kills it for me is if they just completely skip the friendship stage. It just kinda feels unrealistic to me XD I’m not saying it can’t be done well, but I like seeing them slowly start to respect and then like each other, as opposed to them just… hating each other but still wanting to kiss? Or something? Admittedly, I don’t ship characters easily XD And I also suck at writing romance in general. So, any advice I give definitely isn’t from writing experience. XD
Yeah good couples always need to be good friends first and foremost, I agree. And your advice was pretty sound! Thanks for the tips Rose 🙂
It actually sounds like you have a good base, especially because they dislike each other because of outside forces/biases. And it’s so much better if you pair it with a redemption arc! I actually really like it when characters actually recognize that they did something wrong and apologize for it. That sounds so obvious but the alternative is that the author tries to explain it away instead of just recognizing they did wrong and I see that too often :/
Thanks I’m glad you think so! I had to give them a solid, simple reason to hate each other and that was the most obvious choice. I also hate it when characters never recognise that they did bad things and the author justifies their actions instead. That’s what they did with Once Upon a Time. Almost all of the villains did awful things that were justified because of their motivations or tragic backstories. Its so very annoying :/ I just have this huge desire to make my male anti-hero really tearful and full of regret, especially towards his girl, after he realises what terrible things he did.
Eeps! The dreaded plot holes that collapse your carefully crafted outline! I hate it when that happens! Hope you fix it soon!
Yeah I think I might have half solved it, I just can’t bring myself to write when I have a glaring dilemma with my narrative, even though I know that generally I figure things out best when I’m actually writing. It’s just so hard sometimes because I’m a perfectionist 🙁
@joelle-stone
@rose-colored-fancy
@crazywriter
@corkybookworm
@irishcelticredflowercrown
@rebekah12
@arindownSo, I have a question for all of you, and I am willing to bet no one on here will be able to top my response to this question:
What is the greatest gift (besides birth) your earthly father ever gave you?
…Go
Brian Stansell (aka O'Brian of the Surface World)
I was born in war.
Fighting from my first breath.I absolutely HATE the whole “love at first sight”. Like, how realistic is that? I’ve watched a friend have several “love at first sight” moments, and it made me sad and sick and sorry. She and her boyfriend (they started dating after only a few days knowing each other) would always end their conversation with “I love you” and I always thought, “Yeah, right, this isn’t love! It’s temporary passion.” I tried to talk to my friend but she didn’t want to hear it, and now she’s gone to Germany and her “boyfriend” has completely shut her off. *glares at boyfriend, who I also know*
Yeah love at first sight gets to me as well. Like West Side Story REALLY annoys me. The main couple meet at a dance, exchange about five words and already they’re in love! When she’s on the balcony and he goes like ‘Maria I love you!’ I felt like smacking my head against the wall. Like THATS NOT HOW IT WORKS!! You just met her!
Instant attraction exists yes, but love is developed overtime. Helllooo??!!
So, long story short, if there’s going to be romance in a book, make it like Aragorn and Arwen, who took, like, 50 years to cultivate their relationship. XD
Hahaha you know personally it kind of frustrates me a little if its dragged on and on. Fifty years is a bit TOO long. I think I’ll make it like ten years or something, because my couple were childhood friends first. It also annoys me when the couple don’t get together officially until the big war is over. I kind of like really high stakes and tension, so I think later in my series, my couple will get married while the whole conflict is happening. I just think that’s way more exciting, especially when there’s a pregnancy involved. That way it gives the heroes an even bigger reason to win the war. But that’s just me 🙂
@irishcelticredflowercrown
@joelle-stoneNeasa and Joelle,
I think more young people need to talk with grandparents that have had a marriage lasting decades to learn what truly makes it work.
As far as 50 years, wow, that is persistence, I must say. “Love would have to be patient…” 😉
But I think a more reasonable time frame is better. I know a couple who dated for 10 years before marriage. My wife and I met in person but fell in love through personal letters and long phone conversations. I had waited and prayed for her all my life before God brought our two worlds together.
I think a romance like Mr. Darcy and Elizabeth Bennet in Jane Austen’s “Pride and Prejudice” seems more interesting and was not a “love at first sight” thing. (ha, ha)
I do have a particular image that appears in one of my online Blog posts that has the symbology of what a marriage is supposed to be. I have a couple in the story that are advanced in years, but not elderly, who were married under this symbolic canopy that represented the ideas of a God sanction marriage.
I believe it appears in Chapter 60 – The Covering of my WIP.
Here’s the link (if interested): Chapter 60 – The Covering [just scroll through and you can’t miss it]My wife and I have been married since 2000, so we have twenty-one years of proof.
My age thing seems to come up again…[sheesh]…
Well, let’s just say I am old enough to have seen the original Star Wars (A New Hope) in theaters when it came out as a young kid. 😉Brian Stansell (aka O'Brian of the Surface World)
I was born in war.
Fighting from my first breath.I checked out your blog – it’s pretty swag! Count on me hangin’ around. If you’re interested, here’s a link to mine. 🙂 I just started so it isn’t especially good or complete.
I think more young people need to talk with grandparents that have had a marriage lasting decades to learn what truly makes it work.
Ooh, good idea! I haven’t written anything beyond crushes for romance yet, since I want to have experienced dating and maybe marriage and pregnancy before I attempt that, but my writing seems to be getting ahead of me, so talking to my grandparents might be a good idea. 😀
As far as 50 years, wow, that is persistence, I must say. “Love would have to be patient…”
Haha, no kidding. At least they had a much longer lifespan than we do. XD
My wife and I met in person but fell in love through personal letters and long phone conversations. I had waited and prayed for her all my life before God brought our two worlds together.
That’s pretty cool! I’ve been praying for my possible future husband since I was thirteen-ish, and I plan to continue as long as I live. 🙂
I think a romance like Mr. Darcy and Elizabeth Bennet in Jane Austen’s “Pride and Prejudice” seems more interesting and was not a “love at first sight” thing. (ha, ha)
I’ve only watched the movie version, but I gotta say that I loved Mr. Darcy from the moment he entered that room. I was like, “Yep, that’s my favorite character! He looks so sad.” (I love sad characters). And then I found out he was Mr. Darcy and was really upset ’cause I always thought Mr. Darcy was the villain. XD
Oh that’s really cool! Yeah I think it’s better to get to know the characters first before making any relationship decisions. If you don’t mind, I’d really love to know more about your two characters
Hmm, they’re both sarcastic idiots. There! Summarized the entire book! XD
The one character is Liorah. (Everyone here knows Liorah, right? Joelle knows her from the Character castle and the rest of y’all saw her in the character description game.) The other one I will refer to as Aydin, a stand-in name that I have since changed, but I’ll refer to him like that so I don’t spoil anything.
Anyway, Aydin has a… complicated backstory and through many plot devices and complicated situations, he got on Liorah’s wrong side. (Yes, that was his fault and he was kinda acting like an idiot, and she had every right to be furious at him.)
So, through many more unfortunate situations, they ended up having to work together on something. (They both hated that and the number of sarcastic insults that were exchanged can barely be counted.)
In the original outline, they were supposed to be a couple, (I honestly don’t know if I should laugh or cringe when I remember my original outline) but about halfway through the draft she just went like “Him? Are you kidding me?” so I changed that.
I mean, even when they’re thinking of each other they’re always mildly disdainful XD
So they’re slowly, slowly becoming friends, and I think they’ll gradually get a sibling-like relationship. Even when they don’t actively hate each other, their personalities clash and they annoy each other unintentionally.
Anyway, really fun character dynamic that offers plenty of opportunities for amusing situations. Perfect 🙂
Yeah I agree, it’s just badly done if there is no logical healthy transition. I plan on making my couples enemies then allies then friends and THEN lovers. But the guy loves her the whole time, he just doesn’t want to admit it XD. And internal conflict is so great, you can’t do a good story without it. Tension is important!!
Ooh, that’s cool! I actually like it when one of the two falls in love earlier. It makes for some interesting conflict.
I also hate it when characters never recognise that they did bad things and the author justifies their actions instead. That’s what they did with Once Upon a Time. Almost all of the villains did awful things that were justified because of their motivations or tragic backstories. Its so very annoying :/ I just have this huge desire to make my male anti-hero really tearful and full of regret, especially towards his girl, after he realises what terrible things he did.
It definitely is annoying! I mean, on one hand, there’s ‘They have big issues and past trauma that led up to this, and they have a crooked worldview that leads to their actions, but what they’re doing is very wrong. Even though I understand why it doesn’t excuse it.’ but too often it just turns into “Ya, okay, they were very evil, but look, they had motivation, so it’s cool, right? Right?” LOL
Yeah I think I might have half solved it, I just can’t bring myself to write when I have a glaring dilemma with my narrative, even though I know that generally I figure things out best when I’m actually writing. It’s just so hard sometimes because I’m a perfectionist
Perfectionism can be a pain sometimes, and I totally get what you mean! All I can say is, you got this, you’ll work it out, and often plot holes are blessings in disguise 😉 Once, I got stuck in a plot hole but it ended up leading to an entire subplot and a backstory for one of my characters. Weird when that happens XD You’ll definitely work it out!
Just want to say, I also really dislike the ‘Love at first sight’ trope! Too often, it’s a trick to avoid actually developing a relationship. Honestly, those characters seldom get more than an eye-roll before I forget about them XD
Without darkness, there is no light. If there was no nighttime, would the stars be as bright?
Hmm, they’re both sarcastic idiots. There! Summarized the entire book! XD
Ah okay I see now why they wouldn’t work together. You can’t have two sarcastic people in a relationship, it would not work, so keeping them as friends is a wise decision 🙂 ah yes I remember Liorah! Aydin sounds really cool, I look forward to maybe at some point later reading content with these two in it. I’d be very interested in their character dynamics 🙂
Ooh, that’s cool! I actually like it when one of the two falls in love earlier. It makes for some interesting conflict.
Yeah I just love me some angsty conflict lol XD especially when the guy has to hide his feeling for her. I’m getting excited just thinking about it haha
It definitely is annoying! I mean, on one hand, there’s ‘They have big issues and past trauma that led up to this, and they have a crooked worldview that leads to their actions, but what they’re doing is very wrong. Even though I understand why it doesn’t excuse it.’ but too often it just turns into “Ya, okay, they were very evil, but look, they had motivation, so it’s cool, right? Right?” LOL
I know right, it’s so annoying! At least we have the sense to go against this ridiculous tide lol
Perfectionism can be a pain sometimes, and I totally get what you mean! All I can say is, you got this, you’ll work it out, and often plot holes are blessings in disguise Once, I got stuck in a plot hole but it ended up leading to an entire subplot and a backstory for one of my characters. Weird when that happens XD You’ll definitely work it out!
Thanks, I hope I will! And it might lead to another sub plot, you’re right! The whole situation is that there’s a character who disguises himself as – we’ll call him a superhero for now. No one knows who he really is, they don’t know that he’s actually, lets just say, an enemy. And the reason he does this whole spiel is because he’s protecting someone and he doesn’t want them to know who he really is. My problem is that I don’t know which version of him should be put in which scene :/ should the superhero fella reveal the big secret to the protagonist or should it be the ‘baddie’? Who should be introduced first? Who is involved in the inciting incident? So yeah that’s my big issue haha.
@joelle-stone, @obrian-of-the-surface-world, @everyone else.
Just hopped on now. In regard to the whole love at first sight, i think Brian, you hit the nail on the head. Biblically incorrect, logically stupid, it is a notion designed to fool people, especially younger ones, including myself. I think of when Paul tells Timothy, “Flee from youthful lusts,” which in part could be grouped with ‘love at first sight.’ Personally I think that it is a load of garbage, (forgive the strong terms). Many people say ‘follow your heart,’ which is something that makes me bite my lip to not shout out, “The heart above all is deceitful!” Jeremiah 17:9.
In regard to the gift of an earthly father, his greatest gift to me has been two-fold. One, he was the one who led me to the Lord. Whereas the Christ saved me, my earthly father was the one that told me the gospel repeatedly, and was the one who helped me in my hour of conversion. Second, he continues to train me spiritually, pointing me to God, and giving me accsess to a positively endless amount of books by theological giants. So i would say that his gift of guiding me and training me up in the way i should go(Proverbs 22:6) is his greatest gift.
So i have a question. Whats your three favorite songs to sing on sunday.
I’ll go first.
All i have is christ (Sovereign Grace Music)
Behold the Lamb(Passion)
In Christ Alone(Getty’s)
@crazywriter
@joelle-stone
@everyone elseYou are correct. Too often people quote these banal phrases that mean very little when examined and often do so much harm. That is why we are told to “capture every thought”. (2 Corinthians 10:5)
There is nothing wrong with admiring the “beauty” of the opposite sex, but when we “assume” that attraction is “love” that goes too far. Love comes from knowledge and commitment and devotion, and esteeming the other as more important than one’s self, and working to help them in their journey to God’s good in their lives. Physical attraction should be kept in its safe lane, recognizing that God calls us to cultivate, prune and channel desire in accordance with His higher view and plan. To truly love we must love “in the Truth”.
Your father’s gift does match mine. How fortunate and blessed you are! 😉
Here’s My Dad’s Gift
My dad took away the stigma of what the term “father” means, by yielding himself to loving God most, before he attempted to parent my brothers and me. He understood that the capacity to love well comes from The One who does love best. So many are tragically suffering under the false picture of what a “father” should be, that they cannot fully embrace the idea of the goodness of a “Heavenly Father”, because of the stigma attached to the word “father” under the example of human failing, abuse or neglect.
My dad is a pastor and has been in the ministry for many years. He is the same man at home as the man that we see in the pulpit. I love the man and never had a doubt that he also loves us. My dad gives the best hugs, my dad is interested in us, and despite his many responsibilities of leadership, he always made time for us when we needed it.
My dad loves big. He loves Jesus most, and I am delighted in that and wouldn’t want it any other way. I know what it is to love my dad so much that I would not want to disappoint him with bad choices or morally questionable actions. My father has faults like any man, but he deliberately cleared the slate so that I can get a better understanding of how perfectly My Heavenly Father loves me and you guys! I am forever grateful for that man who was never too tough to cry, never too proud to apologize (even to us), and never too self-righteous to not bow the knee each morning with the full understanding of the words, “There but for the grace of God, go I.”
Brian Stansell (aka O'Brian of the Surface World)
I was born in war.
Fighting from my first breath.In response to:
What are your three favorite songs to sing on Sunday.I do love “In Christ Alone” (Getty) but I also love the one by Michael English. I once heard him perform it live and literally wept because it was so anointed.
I tend to love some of the “old school” Hymns too.
It is Well With My Soul – the historical context of this author’s (Horatio Spafford) verses is powerful
I Have Decided to Follow Jesus — the last stanza in particular “…Though none go with me, I still will follow”I also love “Oceans” and “No Longer Slaves”, especially love hearing them performed by Father and Son team Enni and Kaanan Francis [check them out on YouTube]
Brian Stansell (aka O'Brian of the Surface World)
I was born in war.
Fighting from my first breath.What is the greatest gift (besides birth) your earthly father ever gave you?
Hmm I would say his encouragement to pursue my love for writing. He’s like my first fan I suppose 🙂 and for teaching me unusual subjects from a really young age. He likes outer space and ancient history so he used to buy me picture books about them when I was toddler. I’ve been obsessed with both ever since, though it did lead to a weird childhood fascination with mummies… :/
In regard to the whole love at first sight, i think Brian, you hit the nail on the head. Biblically incorrect, logically stupid, it is a notion designed to fool people, especially younger ones, including myself. I think of when Paul tells Timothy, “Flee from youthful lusts,” which in part could be grouped with ‘love at first sight.’ Personally I think that it is a load of garbage, (forgive the strong terms).
Strong terms are awesome!! You should see how I talk when the subject of the secular entertainment industry comes up. XD
Many people say ‘follow your heart,’ which is something that makes me bite my lip to not shout out, “The heart above all is deceitful!” Jeremiah 17:9.
Oof, same here! My mom has always been strongly against this “advice” since she tried it when she was… a teenager? I think? Anyway it didn’t turn out.
This is one of the reasons I highly appreciate Andrew Peterson. In one of his books (On the Edge of the Dark Sea of Darkness, I think) he says, “Don’t just follow your heart. Your heart will betray you.”
FINALLY SOMEONE WHO GETS IT RIGHT!
Whats your three favorite songs to sing on sunday?
Ooh… hard question. I’ll go with
- You Are Holy (Prince of Peace) by Michael W. Smith (I don’t really like most of his songs, but this one is so fun to sing and the lyrics are amazing)
- It is Well With My Soul (I agree, Mr. Brian! The story is stunning).
- Turn Your Eyes Upon Jesus (especially the last verse, where it says, “Then go to a world that is dying, his perfect salvation to tell).
Both you and Peter have awesome best gifts from your dad!! My mom was more the one who led me to Christ, tho, so I think I’d say my best gift from my dad is himself. He pours his time, energy, money, patience, sleep, tender love, everything into caring for his daughters. He’s always been there for me and, even though it’s hard for us to understand each other at times, he’s one of my greatest role models and mentors.
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