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Fantasy Writers

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Viewing 15 posts - 106 through 120 (of 127 total)
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  • #148272
    Isaiah
    @allertingthbs

    @crazywriter Thanks for clarifying, certainly didn’t want to misunderstand. I agree that salvation is fully based on God’s grace and His Will. It says in Romans 10,

    – If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.-

    Isn’t our faith and confession in His ability to save and His sacrifice what makes the decision that we’re saved? He gave His son to be the justification for us and we need only to accept that. I believe that Jesus’ sacrifice in crucifixion is what is predetermined as God sent Him to do so according to His will. He gives each and every one of us the door to walk through, our only participation is to accept our fault and need for salvation. I think the most that someone who’s saved does in the process is basically tapping “accept” on a Venmo transaction, if that transaction happened to be eternal life, joy, and love.

    I’m interested to hear what you think about it 🙂

    "Only a Sith deals in absolutes"
    -Quipmaster 2005

    #148273
    Isaiah
    @allertingthbs

    As for the church hopping question.

    The evangelical church was one of the first I can remember, and at the time it seemed just like how church was. Sunday school tended to have candy rewards for sword drills at least (:

    The baptist church I attended for many years until I was about nineteen. I enjoyed it for most of it, the head pastor was very strong in his messages and there was a great youth pastor there who did Sunday evening messages as well. There was a lot of more in-depth sermons by him, things like comparing translations and character studies of some of the Apostles if I remember right. In the last couple years I was feeling the messages to grow a bit repetitious and stale. I also started to recognize and pray on a couple topics like their different beliefs on LGBT+ individuals and how the church leadership handled some difficult situations.

    I started attending the non-denominational church when I moved to a somewhat bigger city for work. The up-beat music and energetic feeling of everything definitely drew me in and the modern feeling of the whole thing. I ended up attending for about 4 years I think, and volunteered for three of them on the audio/video team and assisting in setup and takedown of larger events we did. About three months ago I got to a tough crossroads with their mission.

    Essentially their mission statement is “The most people in the shortest time,” as in trying to reach as many people in as big numbers as possible. The church has seen a lot of growth in the short time I’ve been there, going from two physical locations to four and an online presence. The downside is that almost all material is for new Christians and the amount of more “veteran” deep dives and messages were non-existent. I’ve been visiting a couple of smaller and more traditional places since then, including the Baptist church I grew up in. They just got a new head pastor and he’s great.

    Those are all my experiences at least. I’d love to hear what some of your backgrounds are if you’d like to share anyway.

    "Only a Sith deals in absolutes"
    -Quipmaster 2005

    #148274
    Crazywriter
    @crazywriter

    @allertingthbs

    I would say, no. Our salvation does not depend totally on our acceptance of his sacrifice. It depends on whether God enables us to be able to accept it. Psalm 53 is clear that no one seeks God. Romans 3:23 echoes this. How can we presume that we can choose God when we can’t even seek him?

    I agree that we must accept God but we can’t until he changes our desires. He must change us, so that we can choose him. Otherwise we rely on our strength. If God merely makes a door for us to walk through, how different is that to a man who is stuck in a pit, and cannot get out. He cries for help, and a voice comes from above the pit. “I’m here. And if you can climb the up the pit, I’ll provide you with food and lodging!” Even if the man throws a rope down, the man getting out of the pit is entirely the mans doing, not the one who gave him the rope. Thus the feat should be attributed to the man who climbed not the one who gave the rope. Likewise if we only take the door, then glory for salvation should go to us not God. That is partly why I think we should be careful saying that salvation depends on our choice, not Gods sovereignty

    #148275
    Isaiah
    @allertingthbs

    @crazywriter Thanks for writing out your views here, I think I’ll need to sleep on it and think about it a little before getting back into the heavy parts of this discussion. It’s awesome to hear what you have to say and think.

    Just a thought, what do you think of having predestination in your literature work? Do you think that it’s only for a Bible God-centric story or do you not generally use it?

    "Only a Sith deals in absolutes"
    -Quipmaster 2005

    #148276
    Crazywriter
    @crazywriter

    @allertingthbs

    I honestly don’t know. Haven’t thought about it honestly. I think the main point, which I think we both agree on, is that if you’re trying to write something allegorical or purposefully to portray something theological, make God the hero. Make him the savior. You can’t go wrong there.

    Also, same. I need to sleep on these things too. I have a tendency to seem heated during a debate topic I’m very passionate about, so i try to keep that in check. But overall I just love being able to converse in friendly debate with a brother/sister in Christ. Thanks for being willing to join this conversation!!

    #148277
    Isaiah
    @allertingthbs

    @crazywriter Yep if you’re trying to say something about God, make Him like Christians see him. Pretty straightforward, and like you said, can’t go wrong.

    I’m always open to talk about my faith, whether with a Christian or someone unsaved. Here it just happens to be a pretty specific and deep theological point that isn’t always the easiest to work through. I’m happy to hear what other Christians believe as well, good to know that we don’t become clones in the fight against the Trade Federation (or whatever other sci-fi/fantasy reference you wanna make).

    "Only a Sith deals in absolutes"
    -Quipmaster 2005

    #148278
    Emily Waldorf
    @emily-waldorf

    @allertingthbs

    I’d love to!

    I believe that while man is free to choose good or evil, we will, in our fallen state, invariably choose evil. Since the Fall it is against our nature to choose good, and therefore against our nature and inclinations to choose God. We are free to do so, but we will not–in both senses of the word. It is an act of God’s free grace to soften our hearts so that we desire God. And when we desire him, we freely choose God. But in the words of C.S. Lewis, “you could not have been calling to me unless I had been calling you.”

    We have free will. But thanks be to God that he has grace, or we would all freely run headlong into hell.

    I hope that was more concise than the my other post 🙂 (?)

    Don't cry for me, for I go where music is born ~J.S. Bach

    #148282
    Crazywriter
    @crazywriter

    @allertingthbs

     

    Exactly. No Order 66s. 😂.


    @emily-Waldorf

     

    Wonderfully put! I agree. I would highly recommend David Clotfelters Sinners In the Hands of a Good God. Excellent book. I know I already mentioned it, but again, it’s just that good. If you can, read it.

    #148283
    Emily Waldorf
    @emily-waldorf

    @crazywriter

    Thank you! Who is this David Clotfelters? Sounds like a good book!

    Don't cry for me, for I go where music is born ~J.S. Bach

    #148284
    Brian Stansell
    @obrian-of-the-surface-world

    What should be the limits on violence in Christian books?

    I think this one should be approached prayerfully and with thoughtful consideration of your target audience.  Some stories organically call for a certain degree of violence, however, there is a point at which the portrayal of violence can do more harm than good.  There is a term often used for this: “gratuitous.”  However, that term is subjective and personally defined.  Often based on what we have been acclimated to by exposure, whether in movies or in personal experience.  A war veteran often knows more about violence than they may want to speak about, but because they have seen hard extremes, they may be more inclined to avoid it.

    The questions for an author on when to use these physical threats are dependent on the goal of the scene, which should always include a subtle awareness of the responsibility one has to their target audience.  If the violence is used for shock value, I believe this qualifies as a gratuitous use, and often it can weaken the impact of a scene rather than strengthen it.

    Crime novels more often show the aftermath of a particularly violent scene, only hinting at what transpired as the investigator unravels the mystery to lead to the identity of the perpetrator.  I think it does a disservice if our works are used to glorify violence and depict it as a first resort rather than a last resort.  Sometimes violence is necessary.  Bloodshed bought our redemption.  Scripture says (Hebrews 9:22): “without the shedding of blood there is no remission [of sins].”  Leviticus 17:22 forbids the ingestion of blood, telling us that our life is in our blood, which we know to be true even more so, now that we have learned more about DNA.  The impact of Christ’s story would not have near the sobering effect on us if not for the violence of the crucifixion.  Jesus did not come to wither away with cancer.  The brutality of the scourging and the torture of the crucifixion shows us that Christ’s suffering was not simply an inconvenience or a light penalty for carrying the weight of mankind’s sin. He paid a terrible price for us.  His death was the most excruciating in mankind’s lurid history.  Isaiah prophesied:

    See, my servant will act wisely; he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted. Just as there were many who were appalled at him–his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any human being and his form marred beyond human likeness– [Isaiah 52:13-14 NIV]

    Think about that statement: “his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any human being”.  What’s more, God knew He would have to endure this outcome, when He created us and chose to give us “free will”.  Hebrews 12:2 says:

    Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. [Hebrews 12:2 KJV]

    What possible “joy” could He foresee that would make the sufferings and shame of the cross worthwhile to Him?  In our own humanity, that is hard to comprehend.  Even angels do not understand it and long to look into it.

    Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow. It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things. [1 Peter 1:10-12 NIV]

    Violence is ubiquitous because our fallen world chooses it, however, those of us who can prevent it from coming to our very doorstep should be prepared to do so.

     

    Is it possible to maintain innocence without living in ignorance?

    Depends on what is meant by “innocence.”  If we are talking about sinlessness, the verse in Romans 3:23 comes to mind using the term “all”, which seems inclusive, save for Christ Jesus, Himself.

    There is no pure righteousness, save that which comes through Christ. (Romans 3:20)

    If we are not raising the standard of “innocence” as to be synonymous with sinlessness, we may look to the verse in James 4:17, which requires an understanding of the expectation, and a choice arising from that expectation, then perhaps the possibility is there for innocence.  Adam and Eve, knew of God’s command while in Eden, but it wasn’t until they had taken the fruit and eaten from the tree, that their eyes were opened to fear and shame (Genesis 3:7).  They knew what was expected of them up until that moment they took action.  It is no sin to be tempted.  If it was, Satan’s temptation of Jesus in the wilderness would have disqualified Him from being our perfect sinless sacrifice.  It is the choice made that crosses the line, not merely the knowledge of the expectation.  This is not to say that there are no mental sins.  In Matthew 5:28, Jesus says to look lustfully on a woman has the effect of having committed adultery with her in a man’s heart, however, there is an implicit choice being made.  A man may look at a beautiful woman and feel a temptation to imagine more than admiration for her, but he is choosing to do so if he follows that impulse by entertaining the idea.  A thought may show up as a salesman on a doorstep, however, one may not allow the salesman into their house.

     

    I will address the free will /predestination question more thoroughly tomorrow when I have more time to respond.
    I do not think God’s foreknowledge of our eventual decision precludes us from our responsibility to make the choice.  We do receive the consequences of our actions.
    God meets us, even in our fallen nature, and empowers us if we choose Him.
    But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: [John 1:12 KJV]
    Jesus’s death on the cross has the capacity to save all mankind, but it is contingent upon a free will choice that He empowers.
    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. [John 3:16 KJV]

    The “whosoever” here seems to include and extend the invitation to the “world”.
    Remember we live in the limitations of time. He does not.  Anyone who does not follow Him, has chosen not to respond to His drawing, and if they persist in this until death, they will by default get the consequence of that choice.  James 4:17 comes to mind again.

    Brian Stansell (aka O'Brian of the Surface World)
    I was born in war.
    Fighting from my first breath.

    #148355
    Brian Stansell
    @obrian-of-the-surface-world

    Daeus wrote a great article about depicting violence:

    How Should Christian Authors Depict Violence?

    He raises some valid points, so I defer.

    I recommend reading 1 John chapter 5 on salvation and the security we have in belief, and the evidence that we who accept Jesus as Savior are children of God.

    Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have God’s Son does not have life. I have written this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know you have eternal life. [1 John 5:12-13 NLT]

    Notice that St, John writes “that you may know you have eternal life”.  This is a litmus test of veracity and certitude.  God changes a human heart (desire) implanting within it a new nature, that while living we still content with the old desires of the flesh, but we have that new nature that will not allow us to live comfortably with habitual sin.

    We know that God’s children do not make a practice of sinning, for God’s Son holds them securely, and the evil one cannot touch them. We know that we are children of God and that the world around us is under the control of the evil one. [1 John 5:18-19 NLT]

    The indication is “do not make a practice of sinning” which is making it part of your routine.  If you can live comfortably with sin without undergoing God’s discipline, it means you have fooled yourself into thinking you are a legitimate child of God.

    For the LORD disciplines those he loves, and he punishes each one he accepts as his child.” As you endure this divine discipline, remember that God is treating you as his own children. Who ever heard of a child who is never disciplined by its father? If God doesn’t discipline you as he does all of his children, it means that you are illegitimate and are not really his children at all. [Hebrews 12:6-8 NLT]

    The idea of predestination goes to God’s foreknowledge of seeing the whole of human history from beginning to end.
    Romans 8:29-30 and Ephesians 1:4-14
    These speak of God’s foreknowledge and His sealing of us before we arrived at the choices we made for Him in our time.  To say God only limited His offering of Himself as payment for we select few who trust Him, presents a problem.  Either Christ died for the whole world as the scriptures say, or He didn’t which throws the whole doctrine of salvation into suspicion.

    And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. [1 John 2:2 NKJV]
    Notice again what St. John is pointing out: “not only for ours only but also for the whole world.”  There’s that concept again.  Christ died for all of the world, but only those who accept Him by faith, with the assurance of who He is, and the veracity of receiving that new nature, do we find Him meeting us and empowering us to be His legitimate children.

    God is a just God.  He did everything in His power, short of taking away our free will, to make a way to redeem us from the death inheritance we received through Adam.
    For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. [1 Corinthians 15:22 NKJV]

    As righteousness [leads] to life, So he who pursues evil [pursues it] to his own death. [Proverbs 11:19 NKJV]

    Jesus did what no one else in history could do.  He was divinely conceived of a virgin, out from under the death curse of Adam.  He lived a holy and sinless life, in total obedience to His Father, and He became the doorway, through Himself, to purchase a righteousness for us that we did not deserve, but can only receive by faith in Him.

    Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. [1 Peter 2:24 KJV]

    It is the rejection of that astounding and amazing gift of Grace that God’s offers us, that sends humans to Hell.

    Is God just?  Yes.  Does the world who rejects such a gift freely offered to them deserve to live with Him beyond the grave?  If He is a just God, by His own definition of justice, then He must grant them the consequence of their free will to reject Him, by giving them eternal separation from Him.

    So Emily (@emily-waldorf)  and I agree.  There can be both predestination AND free will and they are not exclusionary.  God’s redemption offer is to all, whether they choose Him or not.

    Brian Stansell (aka O'Brian of the Surface World)
    I was born in war.
    Fighting from my first breath.

    #148357
    Crazywriter
    @crazywriter

    @obrian-of-the-surface-world

    First of all, excellently made argument! The use of scripture is great, as it should be the only thing used in primary theological debates.

    So when you address God limiting his atonement, also known as ‘limited atonement’ I think we disagree. Also, it should be noted that the use of limited is a poor representation of what Calvinists mean. What it should be called,  or at least most calvinsits Would agree it should be, is definite atonement.

    Far be it from us to say Christ’s Blood could not save the world, for it certainly could. His sacrifice is completely efficacious.

    However, if we say that Christ provided us with salvation, but if we refuse, we aren’t saved, then we say his work on the cross wasn’t enough to draw that sinner. Sure, Christ died for the world, but it doesn’t save the whole world. We then place the ball in mans court. Mans decision makes or breaks salvation. We then give man the authority to lessen or increase the efficacious nature of Christ’s death.

    How then could Christ die for millions of people who never will choose him, let alone hear of him. If we say that there is no definite atonement, then Christ has suffered for unbelievers sins, and then they will have to suffer for them again in hell. You see, the atonement which can be negated by a mans choice is simply uneffective. Rather, Christ says, “And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.”
    He again prays in John 17:2, “since you gave him authority over all flesh, so that he may give eternal life to everyone you have given him.”
    If Christ died for the people God has given him, then the atonement makes sense. It is effective. It pays for those he chose. That is not to say at all that there are reprobates, who want to be saved, but cannot because God didn’t choose them. If a human truly wants God, it is because God has called  them and is working in their life, for salvation. No, those who are doomed to hell are only doomed to hell because they never want God, and never could be able to because of their own decisions and sins. So there will be no people in hell that truly wanted to be saved.

    I beleive that the Calvinist atonement gives more hope and encouragement than that of a Arminian because it is effective. There is no doubt of the salvation given, because Christ died specifically for his people.

    Hopefully that made sense. Thanks for your thoughts Brian! I appreciate them a lot. I appreciate and admire your desire and love for scripture and truth. Thanks so much for sharing, and I love hearing Christian brothers and sisters different thoughts!

     

    #148358
    Brian Stansell
    @obrian-of-the-surface-world

    I have thought a little more about the question:

    Is it possible to maintain innocence without living in ignorance?

    There are two things which I may suggest as reference points to speak to that question.

    James writes:
    Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: [James 1:13 KJV]

    And Jesus said to His disciples:

    I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. [John 15:15 NIV]

    If shared knowledge entices the innocence into sin, why would God reveal to us anything, if by sharing His business and commands He would then be enticing us to rebel against them?  Remember, God tempts no one to commit evil, ergo since He does share both His commands and His prophetic revelations, these imparted gifts do not entice us away from innocence, even though they may require us to recognize a standard that we may or may not break.

    Brian Stansell (aka O'Brian of the Surface World)
    I was born in war.
    Fighting from my first breath.

    #148369
    Brian Stansell
    @obrian-of-the-surface-world

    Good evening @crazywriter,

    Thank you for your response.  I always refer back to Scripture, for whatever we may think about a concept, it should always return to God’s Word as a starting point:

    All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [2 Timothy 3:16 KJV]

    Any doctrinal difference we may have can arise from an interpretation, but we would always be better served to go back to Scripture, rather than tradition.  Even the Apostle Paul, learned and steep in scholarship as he was, missed Christ’s identity until his Damascus Road encounter because he formerly relied on a tradition to label Christ and His followers as heretics, before his humbling and conversion.  In Acts 17:10-11, the Bereans were considered nobler because they used the scriptures as the ultimate truth source to validate Paul’s words.

    My personal opinion matters little. Romans 3:4 says, “…Let God be true and every [man] a liar…” so, I freely admit to being on a learning curve, subject to what God reveals to me as I grow and mature in the continual study of His Word.

    But let me pose a few questions to you, that may seem unrelated:

    1. Do you believe that those biblical persons mentioned in Hebrews 11 who died before Christ was born are presently in Heaven?

    2. If you answered “Yes,” when Christ said [John 14:6 NKJV], “…I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.” How do you reconcile that?

    3. In C.S. Lewis’s “The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe” Chapter 5, Peter and Susan go to their Uncle Digory (The Professor) distressed over Lucy’s seeming lie and having been away in Narnia for “hours and hours.”  Why did this make sense to the Professor, which seemed to give credence to Lucy’s story?

    Let’s start there.  The answers are truly fascinating in Scripture but they are often overlooked.  The C.S. Lewis is a bit of a slant, I grant you, but I will ask a further question depending on your answer.

    Denali (@denali-christianson) see what you started? 😉 [grins]

    Brian Stansell (aka O'Brian of the Surface World)
    I was born in war.
    Fighting from my first breath.

    #148370
    Brian Stansell
    @obrian-of-the-surface-world

    Let me add a fourth question:

    4. What do you believe is the unpardonable sin?

    Brian Stansell (aka O'Brian of the Surface World)
    I was born in war.
    Fighting from my first breath.

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