Friendly debates here!
- This topic has 162 replies, 18 voices, and was last updated 2 years, 8 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
*Attempts to sneak in stealthily but trips on corner of rug and tumbles headlong into the midst of the room*
HELLO EVERYONE
THE DENALI HASETH RETURNETHED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Oh, fire-breathing turtles??? WELL THAT’S COOLLLL
Also @lady-grace I HAVE NEVER MET YOU *bowls you over with a hug* WELCOME TO THE FORUM!!!!!!!! Tell me about yourself!!!! XD
I 100% agree with @lady-grace and @calidris. A little nudity here and there, if it is a natural outpouring of the events, is not overly described, and is not sexualized in any way, I think is completely acceptable. If we know it happens but it isn’t… um… *forgets how to English* IDEALIZED that was the word I was looking for… isn’t idealized in any way, then it’s cool.
HrRrRrmMmMM
debate topics…
I d o n ‘ t k n o w w w wwwww
Ahhh a classic debate topic (which I do believe was debated awhile back but I wanna hear y’all’s thoughts!)
What constitutes “magic” in fantasy and where do you draw the line? I.E. do you think there is such a thing as “good magic?” When does it become “bad magic?” Can magic be a good thing at all?
I will contain my rant for precisely- Nope.
SOMEONE POST BEFORE I EXPLODE XD
"The darkness is seldom complete, and even when it is, the pinprick of light is not long in coming."
@denali-christianson well, I’m very curious to hear your response, because I believe you have a magic system in your story, right?
It’s not a hard line for me, but there are a few things I like to take into consideration:
1. Is the author a believer?
I’m much more likely to read a book with magic in it if the author is a believer and is approaching it from that perspective.
2. Is it set in the real world?
If a book is set in the real world and has a magic system, that could potentially be more dangerous than a fantasy book with magic in it
3. Is the magic similar to real world witchcraft or new age beliefs?
The reason that magic is forbidden in the Bible is because it involves using demonic forces to gain power for oneself. It’s in direct, open rebellion to God. However, I think there’s a lot of technology we have today that people 2,000 years ago probably would’ve thought was witchcraft. I don’t think it’s as much about the ability or power itself, but where it’s coming from and who it’s glorifying.
So, “spiritualized” magic systems are an instant no for me. For example, I know a lot of Christians love Star Wars, but I personally don’t really feel inclined to watch it because the “magic system” is portrayed as spiritual, and it’s very similar in many ways to real new age practices (which are clearly demonic). This is my personal perspective, though.
4. How is the magic portrayed? Is it just a natural ability some people have and others don’t? Is it learned? I think one of the major things I look for is the general “feel.” If the magic is portrayed as dark or mystical, or feels spiritually unhealthy, then I won’t read it (although if that’s portrayed as evil in the story, that’s better). It’s interesting, I think a lot of this has to do with the author’s intent and perspective. So, one thing that feels kind of iffy to me is the presence of a learned magic system – ESPECIALLY when it’s portrayed as a spiritual knowledge that the person must obtain (again, getting too similar to real world witchcraft.) However, I have a Christian friend who has a WIP involving a protagonist learning magic. The difference here is that “magic” in this sense is almost in some ways like a scientific or academic study, with different fields and experts (iirc). So in this case, there’s a “natural” magic which is just a normal part of the world, and an “unnatural” magic which is more like witchcraft.
which btw @merieshenanigans I’d be interested to hear your input for this one!
Also one thing I want to add – I think it’s kind of common for Christian fantasy writers to give their protagonist magical powers and say it’s from God. I’d actually be really careful with this one, because when we bring God’s presence into the story that directly and tangibly, we’re under even more obligation to portray it responsibly and accurately (imo). Just making a thing “Christian” or “from God” doesn’t necessarily make it good or accurate. I suspect that this comes from a fear of just including magic in Christian stories – and while it’s certainly something to be wary and prayerful about, casually adding God or Christianity to it doesn’t solve any problems. In the Bible, God didn’t performs miracles lightly, and He didn’t give prophets power just for fun. All of these displays of power pointed people to His love, might, and terrifying, holy majesty. People who God gave power to were often (if not always) in positions of great responsibility. I also feel like it can sometimes be a crutch to avoid confronting larger questions or putting people off. I’m not saying that this can’t be done right, because it certainly has! But, I think it’s unwise to casually attribute “magic” to God just because it feels “safer.” I’ve noticed that Christian fiction can be scarily casual when it comes to depictions of God and of His work in our lives – for example, a concerning amount of Christian romance novels implicitly say “if you’re faithful, God will give you a rugged handsome 6’5″ husband.” TBH I actually think this has made Christianity a lot less appealing to unbelievers, because it makes it seem shallow, hollow, unrealistic, and unsympathetic to people’s actual struggles.
At the end of the day, it’s one of those things we have to bring to God in prayer, and ask what He thinks, and what His will is for our writing (not necessarily someone else’s – although there’s some things that are just objectively wrong in anyone’s writing XD)
*laughs as one fey*
Hi @obrian-of-the-surface-world
And @denali-christiansonI’d just have to call it “hard-cased heartburn”…😉
😂
I HAVE NEVER MET YOU *bowls you over with a hug* WELCOME TO THE FORUM!!!!!!!! Tell me about yourself!!!! XD
*squeezes the breath out of you* your picture is Éowyn!! Hi!!! Yep, I joined recently.
I’m the Éowyn of this earth in personality. I love to sword fightand beat my older brother while talking to my momI also play guitar and read like fire😂 (I finished LOTR in less than a week).*forgets how to English* IDEALIZED that was the word I was looking for…
I forget how to do English All the time😂. “Eqivalate? No.. equviate… equalate… oh! Equal. That took way too long.” 😂😂
What constitutes “magic” in fantasy and where do you draw the line? I.E. do you think there is such a thing as “good magic?” When does it become “bad magic?” Can magic be a good thing at all?
Ooh! Great one that I’ve actually been thinking about recently.
I think we often dub things we don’t understand “magic” because we have no better term for it. “Magic” is a broad term, from Gandalf and the elves to Harry Potter.
A non Christian might call a miracle “magic”, but then there is also witchcraft. When Samwise says he wants to see “magic”, Galadriel tells him that is what they call Sauron’s power.
So essentially the important thing is not the word, it’s what it actually is. I think “bad magic” is chanting, divining, cursing, summoning, channeling dead spirits, channeling power through gemstones, etc.
Now the “good magic” I believe is like a gift granted to a person or race, like the spiritual gifts. A Holy Spirit gift is not going to be called magic. However, in a fantasy setting a power/talent/gift might get called magic.A long-hidden tale may hold the answers-and the healing-they so desperately seek.
~Set the Stars AlightThere’s a lot to say on this, but that will get us started🙂
*sees @calidris ‘s post* nvm… guess I’m a little late to the party😂
A long-hidden tale may hold the answers-and the healing-they so desperately seek.
~Set the Stars AlightSamwise says he wants to see “magic”, Galadriel tells him that is what they call Sauron’s power. So essentially the important thing is not the word, it’s what it actually is. I think “bad magic” is chanting, divining, cursing, summoning, channeling dead spirits, channeling power through gemstones, etc. Now the “good magic” I believe is like a gift granted to a person or race, like the spiritual gifts. A Holy Spirit gift is not going to be called magic. However, in a fantasy setting a power/talent/gift might get called magic.
That’s also an excellent point!
*laughs as one fey*
That’s also an excellent point!
Thanks! Yours was good, too.
A long-hidden tale may hold the answers-and the healing-they so desperately seek.
~Set the Stars AlightThat sounds like an interesting story. Is that the one my sister E. N. Leonard beta read?
um… not quite. lol. She read the prequel, so to speak. She read the story of how my main protagonist’s parents got together, (which consequently was when the the main protagonist’s father killed the main antagonist’s father…. due to the blood curse as well…. so… yeah! all connected. 😮😉)
So yeah, I think as long as you keep it unexplicit and brief, you should be ok.
thanks. that’s encouraging.
Also, your books already deal with some pretty mature topics, so I don’t think this is going to feel shocking or out of place at all – it’s a lot smaller of an “issue” than some of the other things you’re writing about, so I think if your readers are fine with the rest of it, this isn’t going to be an issue
aw, thank you!
I’d just have to call it “hard-cased heartburn”…😉
🤣
natural outpouring of the events, is not overly described, and is not sexualized
👍
What constitutes “magic” in fantasy and where do you draw the line? I.E. do you think there is such a thing as “good magic?” When does it become “bad magic?” Can magic be a good thing at all?
lol. ALL DEPENDS ON THE DEFINITION OF MAGIC!!!! for me…. if Magic is defined as witchcraft, sorcery, etc. WHERE the power is derived from the spiritual realm (in other words, demons… just not many say that…) Then of course it is “no good”
I would argue that vernacular is HUGE here! I would also argue that Most “Quote” “Magic systems” “Unquote” used in fantasy are less “””Magic”””” and more special abilities. My argument for that being that their “magic” is derived from one of a few places… (1) their blood (ie. special power personalized to themselves and/or inherited ability). Examples include Harry Potter, I am Number One, E.T., Lord of the Rings (2) the world (magic is “in” somewhere or everywhere and people have the ability to tap into it). Examples include Narnia, Star Wars, Spiderwick. (3) Items (ie. magical items gives them the ability to use magic, which is kind of a spin off of magic in the world, just limited). Examples include King Arthur, Lord of the Rings, Locke & Key. That may not be the only three ways… but I think that gets the picture across…
My personal fantasy stories use something called “essence” which is like a magic system, but it is definitely an example of #1. It is an ability passed on genetically through the different races of my world. But it is such a fantastical element that most people would describe it as magical.
Now, as far as “Bad magic”, I would say that as long as it’s not idealized (hehe. @denali-christianson , I stole your word. 😏) then it CAN be used in certain cases. For example, the antagonist use of said bad magic.
In a suspense novel I was attempting to write before I found out that fantasy was my niche, I had an antagonist who toyed with demon possession. Bad magic? Yes. Appropriate usage in the novel? Yes… I think so.
The reason that magic is forbidden in the Bible is because it involves using demonic forces to gain power for oneself. It’s in direct, open rebellion to God.
👍
So, “spiritualized” magic systems are an instant no for me. For example, I know a lot of Christians love Star Wars, but I personally don’t really feel inclined to watch it because the “magic system” is portrayed as spiritual, and it’s very similar in many ways to real new age practices (which are clearly demonic). This is my personal perspective, though.
I do, admittedly, like Star Wars, But you are ABSOLUTELY right! Even the director (or was it the author?) admitted to the influence of Zen Buddhism, specifically, in the authoring of Star Wars Jedi philosophy.
I also commend you for not watching it (even though I do enjoy it), because it really is a conviction thing! For example, personally, there are some movies I will watch just so I can have conversations with people about the bad philosophy in it and attempt to bring God glory, for the movie is a common foundation point in which to jump into theological conversations (now, yes, I definitely have to be wary and careful that I don’t make that an “excuse” to watch what I want, etc… but for example, a few years back a TON of my students were watch a show on Netflix called 13 Reasons Why. It is not really a God honoring show, and it talks about suicide, etc. But I watched them because I felt I needed to know first hand what the kids were talking about, especially because suicide is a huge theme in that show. I was glad it did not glorify or (hehe) idealize suicide, but it was definitely not a show I would elect to watch otherwise [nor would I recommend it. 🙅]. but there were important conversations I was able to have with my students because I had that prior knowledge of what 13 Reasons Why was about. … hope that made sense….
but on the other hand of that same coin, yes! I applaud you for keeping to the personal conviction of not watching Star Wars. Kuddos. 👍
I forget how to do English All the time😂. “Eqivalate? No.. equviate… equalate… oh! Equal. That took way too long.” 😂😂
I’m such a … big-worded person…. sometimes it works against me. 😂. I looked at your first word and thought.. .oh, you mean ‘equivocate’! 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 doh.
I think we often dub things we don’t understand “magic” because we have no better term for it.
👍
hehe. not much of a debate yet… but still awesome. 😁
Some other debate subjects (not necessarily related to writing, per se….) …. (feel free to pick…)
– Which is better? Star Wars, Star Gate, or Star Trek? (… and if anyone asks, “what’s star gate”, I’m gonna cry. 😭) (hehe. okay, that one is kinda tongue in cheek)
– Is there limits to how villainous a villain can be?
– Capitalism or Socialism?
– If God is good and all powerful, why is there pain in the world?
– What is being taught in schools these days. . . . . . . . . . (sex ed, evolution, relativism, historical revisionism, etc….)
– Free will vs Free choice
– Predestination vs. Free will
– What determines if something is a cult, and what if someone who claims to be a part of it doesn’t actually know all that they believe… is that person still considered a cultist?
– Textual criticism of the Bible or Biblical inerrancy?
– Proper and appropriate (God-honoring) dating relationships…
– *** (I’m really interested in this one…) Difference between where we should draw the lines morally and where we should draw the lines legally… (example, our nation doesn’t force anyone to believe in Christianity, so there are certain things we see as evil that we have legal in our country – examples… homosexual unions, gender-changing operations, abortion, euthanasia (in some states), legalized drugs, pornography… those are blatant ones… but also things like… church membership in other religions, sex before wedlock, other forms of promiscuity, etc..) A perfect example would be I just had a long conversation with a Christian friend of mine who felt that we didn’t have the right to legislate against abortion, even though he personally thought it was wrong. Where do you draw the line between what you think is wrong and there should be a law against it and what you think is wrong but should not be a law against it…
……. I could probably think of some more…. but…. 😪 that should do for now…….
Christianity has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found difficult and left untried. ~ G.K.C.
Oh.. and I’m interested…. what’s the relationship between the three Leonard’s I see on StoryEmber? (laying on my stomach, elbows up, chin in hands, wide eyes with my feet kicking out behind me….)
Christianity has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found difficult and left untried. ~ G.K.C.
I’ll respond to the other things tomorrow cause it’s late but…
Oh.. and I’m interested…. what’s the relationship between the three Leonard’s I see on StoryEmber? (laying on my stomach, elbows up, chin in hands, wide eyes with my feet kicking out behind me….)
Haha, we’re siblings. E.N. (I call her M&M so if you see that, don’t think I’m wanting to eat her I wrote a poem on why I wouldn’t😂) is the oldest, Ethan is the monkey in the middle, and I play the role of annoying little sister😁
A long-hidden tale may hold the answers-and the healing-they so desperately seek.
~Set the Stars AlightHaha, we’re siblings. E.N. (I call her M&M so if you see that, don’t think I’m wanting to eat her I wrote a poem on why I wouldn’t😂) is the oldest, Ethan is the monkey in the middle, and I play the role of annoying little sister😁
👍
sooo awesome! Two of my siblings don’t write…. but one of my sisters does…. I Sooooo need to get her on here!!!
and Ethan…. it’s okay. 😏 me middle sibling too… We know… middle’s da best.
Christianity has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found difficult and left untried. ~ G.K.C.
um… not quite. lol. She read the prequel, so to speak. She read the story of how my main protagonist’s parents got together, (which consequently was when the the main protagonist’s father killed the main antagonist’s father…. due to the blood curse as well…. so… yeah! all connected. 😮😉)
Oh ok, that one…
totally didn’t find that in the character castle while I was still silently spectatingHeheh… hope you don’t mind I read itat two amI agreed with what Emma said so I just left her tell you what she thought… *grins nervously*I’m such a … big-worded person…. sometimes it works against me. 😂. I looked at your first word and thought.. .oh, you mean ‘equivocate’! 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 doh.
Haha, yeah, I use big words to obfuscate people and just have to hope they won’t be dictioneers😂
hehe. not much of a debate yet… but still awesome. 😁
Yeah, we all seem to agree on a lot😂
– Which is better? Star Wars, Star Gate, or Star Trek? (… and if anyone asks, “what’s star gate”, I’m gonna cry. 😭) (hehe. okay, that one is kinda tongue in cheek)
Poor Star Gate… I don’t know what it is and I haven’t seen Star Trek… *hands you a tissue*
– Is there limits to how villainous a villain can be?
That could be interesting. Actually, I think SE talked about that a bit in a podcast. I forget..
– Capitalism or Socialism?
– If God is good and all powerful, why is there pain in the world?
👍
👍– What is being taught in schools these days. . . . . . . . . . (sex ed, evolution, relativism, historical revisionism, etc….)
I wouldn’t be able to say a lot here. I was in public school for a year before our parents pulled us out and started homeschooling.
– Free will vs Free choice
– Predestination vs. Free will
I think those were discussed earlier in this room.
– What determines if something is a cult, and what if someone who claims to be a part of it doesn’t actually know all that they believe… is that person still considered a cultist?
I don’t know much in this area🧐
– Textual criticism of the Bible or Biblical inerrancy?
👍
– Proper and appropriate (God-honoring) dating relationships…
*tries to take this seriously cause my laughter is out of place* 👍
(I’m really interested in this one…) Difference between where we should draw the lines morally and where we should draw the lines legally… (example, our nation doesn’t force anyone to believe in Christianity, so there are certain things we see as evil that we have legal in our country – examples… homosexual unions, gender-changing operations, abortion, euthanasia (in some states), legalized drugs, pornography… those are blatant ones… but also things like… church membership in other religions, sex before wedlock, other forms of promiscuity, etc..) A perfect example would be I just had a long conversation with a Christian friend of mine who felt that we didn’t have the right to legislate against abortion, even though he personally thought it was wrong. Where do you draw the line between what you think is wrong and there should be a law against it and what you think is wrong but should not be a law against it…
👍
A long-hidden tale may hold the answers-and the healing-they so desperately seek.
~Set the Stars Alightsooo awesome! Two of my siblings don’t write…. but one of my sisters does…. I Sooooo need to get her on here!!!
Cool!
Yeah, I started writing first (a friend got me into it. We discussed clothes for a month🤦♀️) and my sister was voluntold to be editor (lol, jk, she volunteered). So she went and found the bane of my existence: Writers Write articles. They were boring and— I’ll skip the rant. Anyway, she eventually found Story Embers—much to my relief—and by then both she and Ethan were writing.
So yeah, now we have come to take over Story Em— (what? What do you mean that’s not why we’re here? I thought— oooh… ok… let me try again…)
*ahem* Now we have to come to take over the writing wor— (what do you mean I’m still wrong?? Go away.)A long-hidden tale may hold the answers-and the healing-they so desperately seek.
~Set the Stars AlightOh ok, that one… totally didn’t find that in the character castle while I was still silently spectating Heheh… hope you don’t mind I read it at two am I agreed with what Emma said so I just left her tell you what she thought… *grins nervously*
perfectly okay!!! the more eyes on it, the better!!!! (I really REALLY hope to get it traditionally published once I tweak a few things…..
So yeah, now we have come to take over Story Em— (what? What do you mean that’s not why we’re here? I thought— oooh… ok… let me try again…) *ahem* Now we have to come to take over the writing wor— (what do you mean I’m still wrong?? Go away.)
😂😂😂😂😂
Christianity has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found difficult and left untried. ~ G.K.C.
perfectly okay!!! the more eyes on it, the better!!!! (I really REALLY hope to get it traditionally published once I tweak a few things…..
👍
I think you will! It was really good and had me laughing at 2 a.m., which is rare.A long-hidden tale may hold the answers-and the healing-they so desperately seek.
~Set the Stars AlightI think you will! It was really good and had me laughing at 2 a.m., which is rare.
aw, thank you!!!!
……………..
(now im interested….). so…….. what parts made you laugh? ? ?
Christianity has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found difficult and left untried. ~ G.K.C.
- The forum ‘Private: Fantasy Writers’ is closed to new topics and replies.
