What is the most bizarre creature you have created for your WIP?
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Hi Joshua (@storysmith),
Are the other characters (non-Kragvora) human? I would think the lethality of the venom would increase with the dosage. If a small dosage is lethal, then the victim would be dead before the venom had a chance to permeate its circulatory system or infect tissues. There are a variety of factors as far as effects that would depend on the victim. For instance, a small infant may fail swiftly, but a large man, with greater density and muscle mass might linger. Age is a factor, weight is a factor, any comorbidity might be a factor, or even species might be a factor. It can’t be just dosage alone. For instance, did you know that certain animals almost never get rabies (opossums, rabbits, squirrels)? The infection arc may have some generally common symptoms, but there are many factors that might inhibit the effects. Snake bites are an example. Certain poisons might be localized, or some might be transmitted through the bloodstream faster depending on where the victim is bitten, or how fast a tourniquet can be applied to mitigate the amount of poison affecting critical organs.
The human body has amazing defense systems that can mitigate damage. For instance, in a hypothermia situation, the most critical organs, are prioritized for blood flow. The extremities and fingers will suffer frostbite far sooner than the brain or the heart, because the body prioritizes which parts of you are most critical for survival. If the full dose creates a full conversion of the victim, them that conversion process will be most taxing on the organs and physiology of the victim to complete the metamorphosis, so the lower dosages distributed cannot and should not kill off organs in the process. Think of a parasite. If it instantly kills the host, then it cannot feed off of it and gain strength for its own adaptability. So the lower doses cannot be lethal. They should have more subtle effects or weakened impact. Does that make sense?
Low dose should be subtle, perhaps that may be what quietly transfers the victim’s thoughts, while still allowing them the ability to mentally process creatively and according to their ingenuity and expertise without being aware that they are being probed and harvested. This should be a neurological effect, rather than an apparent physiological effect. Medium dosage might cause damage, such as paranoia, or a feeling of lost time or memory. A sensation that something is wrong, but they cannot clearly figure out what it might be, because of brain fog. This would be when the Kragvora might want to get at the desired knowledge quicker and literally be raping the brain of their victim by stealing knowledge and memory. If the desire is to convert the victim into themselves, that process requires mutative energy, so the body cannot die during the process of reforming whatever changes are necessary. It may require the victim to become dormant or comatose to allow the body processes to mutate and not be taxed by any other stressors that would come with the person being aware of what is happening. They would require some means of energy generation, so a part of the metamorphosis stage, may cause them to awaken to ravenous hunger and blind rage, but I would think that would be for full dose.
Does that help?Brian Stansell (aka O'Brian of the Surface World)
I was born in war.
Fighting from my first breath.sounds reasonable to me, and adds flavor and options to your writing style.
Christianity has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found difficult and left untried. ~ G.K.C.
If a small dosage is lethal, then the victim would be dead before the venom had a chance to permeate its circulatory system or infect tissues.
@obrian-of-the-surface-world, I took @storysmith ‘s venom scenario differentlyA few drops = paralysis and infection leading to slow death
Small doses = death
Medium doses = death and reanimation into feral, mindless creatures – but not Kragvora.
Large doses = death and reanimation into a full-blown Kragvora.
I’ve seen zombie movies do this where most are mindless, while some are strong enough to retain some of their intelligence. I don’t think this twist on that scenario is too far a stretch. I think it can make a lot of sense, and since it is your world and your creatures, you can certainly make it work. =)
Christianity has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found difficult and left untried. ~ G.K.C.
Yes, I have 10 other races of good humanoids and 5 bad races. That does not include the countless hybrids of humanoids. lol You have good points that I have personally wrestled with on a realistic level comparing animals and how venom works.
Your idea is mostly correct, though I was hoping to avoid them being seen as typical zombies, more like a lab mutant perhaps ghoulish. In a way, they are undead as the host dies to the pathogen/virus as it takes over.
An underlying idea is that the Kragvora which are like living weapons being lab-made can actively control the venom such as the amount, potency, and function as it is injecting it because of the bio crystal tech. I have thought of seeing this venom as a nanobot made of crystal particles programmed to a specific function when released. One other thing to know is that due to the planetary environment most people and animals have crystal particles and even hard crystalline skeletons. As for the doses, another idea was that the smaller the dose, the more potent it is, and being efficient as they are, they do not waste their stored amounts of venom. Whereas the larger the dose, the less potent it is to cause damage to the host as it floods the body, taking control of the internals for the purpose of morphing the host. Maybe to make it more realistic, they have one gland for each of the 3 types of venom. Still ironing out the details but think this is a lab-engineered bioweapon that in some ways operates like a computer.
Hi Jared (@jared-williams),
Yeah, I get it. But the idea that anything but God can give life is where I diverge. I have always hated zombie stories because it seems to imply a life after death that is wholly given credit to “devils”. The only thing I might could concede is animated dead flesh with another entity in possession of the body. But the one born naturally to the body, has passed on eternally.
As a Christian writer, to me, “the zombie idea” feels like a mockery of “resurrection” and it attributes a quality to the “forces of darkness” that I am not willing to concede even in fiction. Calling the dead back to life was one of the ways God/Jesus authenticated Himself. I can see where a devil might want to give an illusion that they can do the same, but it has to be only that. An illusion.
In fact, I have that very thing happening in my “work-in-progress”.I do not think “forces of evil” can create anything. I think they would like people to believe they can. It all goes back to Satan being the father of lies and deception. Evil adulterates, corrodes, dissembles, diseases, and distorts creation, but devils cannot duplicate the power of God to create living beings or create out of nothing.
In whose hand [is] the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind. [Job 12:10 KJV]
It seems to me that the idea of a zombie makes a mockery of life-after-death and is pagan. As a Christian, (thinking of 1 Corinthian 15:17-21) the idea holds great promise and certainty for my faith and it is hard for me to see how that could be edifying.
Sorry guys, I’m just going to have to pass on this one.
Brian Stansell (aka O'Brian of the Surface World)
I was born in war.
Fighting from my first breath.I was hoping to avoid them being seen as typical zombies, more like a lab mutant perhaps ghoulish. In a way, they are undead as the host dies to the pathogen/virus as it takes over.
Oh, it’s a far cry from a zombie. I was just using it as an example.
I can understand Brian’s aversion to zombies, and I won’t push the point, but your creature doesn’t sound like reanimation or bringing the dead back to life, but nano-technology taking over a person, which could easily change a person’s personality, the way they think, and control even the smallest of actions the person makes – according to programs… not sure if that is what you are thinking of either, but… perhaps you could describe it best… anyway,
Maybe to make it more realistic, they have one gland for each of the 3 types of venom.
I think that is easily done. Perhaps something like it’s teeth produce one venom, and they have to bite the victim to use it, like a snake. Another is formed by it’s spit, like certain cobras can do, and then another perhaps is secreted in it’s skin, like some frogs, or even perhaps more specifically, like in its fingertips, so when it scratches someone, they are infected by that particular poison.
Those venoms can then be easily separated by purpose. Scratches kill – spit paralyzes, and bites transform. Or something like that.
Christianity has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found difficult and left untried. ~ G.K.C.
Thanks! I am glad it made sense. Though I did not explain it thoroughly as I should have.
I think that is easily done. Perhaps something like it’s teeth produce one venom, and they have to bite the victim to use it, like a snake. Another is formed by it’s spit, like certain cobras can do, and then another perhaps is secreted in it’s skin, like some frogs, or even perhaps more specifically, like in its fingertips, so when it scratches someone, they are infected by that particular poison. Those venoms can then be easily separated by purpose. Scratches kill – spit paralyzes, and bites transform. Or something like that.
Thank you for this idea! I will need to play it out and tweak it. It would make it more understandable to the reader if they saw the outcome and is able to pinpoint how it happened with the kragvora’s anatomy.
I see your point and agree. I honestly hate our modern concept of zombies as they are just gross and gory. I agree our concept of reanimated dead comes from paganism specifically witchcraft. I don’t find the concept of people being taken over by a virus/pathogen/parasite and turned into zombies biblically wrong as it is something modifying/changing what is already there and was not created out of anything. However, I do find the witchcraft idea of necromancy biblically wrong as it is the reanimation of people recently killed to long-dead which is like evil giving life. I find it specifically wrong because it is the manipulation of the soul which is something I believe Christians should be extremely careful about and should avoid if possible. I personally am leaving out magic so it does not give the idea that necromancy could be possible in my world. I will give people fantastical abilities mostly exclusive to their race that is fueled by radioactive energy emitted by certain types of crystals on the planet’s surface.
I originally got my idea for the Kragvora from vampires and Tolkien as most would say Morgoth did not create his creatures out of anything but changed existing good living creatures/elves into bad ones. Then my idea for the feral humans and also the kragvora themselves came from reading about real zombie bugs where a worm parasite or fungus spores will hijack the bug’s body taking control over its brain and body. Depending on the parasitic organism/fungus, it will do whatever it needs in order to survive till the host dies and is unable to function. Thankfully God did not allow this to be possible for us vertebrates otherwise we would have a real zombie problem.
I think the undead idea is different from the normal gory concept of a zombie because my nanobots will make sure the body stays healthy and intact so it can successfully accomplish what it is programmed to do.
I had another idea I was wrestling with that does follows the bug zombie concept better than the idea of the host being killed off in order for the parasite nanobots to take control of the body.
My other idea was to keep the victim’s consciousness alive but imprisoned /suppressed as the victim has lost control his/her body as it is hijacked by the nanobots and is turned into a feral mutant with the intelligence of a vicious animal predator or turned into a kragvora assassin.
I was not sure at first with this 2nd idea I had at the same time with the first idea. I am honestly thankful to this discussion and honest opinions, I think the 2nd option of keeping the host’s consciousness alive under the control of the nanobots and won’t die till the nanobot modified body does, is a much safer option to avoid misconceptions of them being zombies.
Any further thoughts/opinions on which of the two is a better option?
something else that may be worth mentioning is that there is a very big difference between descriptive and prescriptive.
I think a lot of the history in the Old Testament is a good example. Many, many stories in the Bible are descriptive – what happened, not prescriptive – what is good. And we can confuse the two very easily. For instance, the Bible speaks out against immoral sexual deviancy, yet it has many stories where those types of acts occur. (Examples could include daughters getting father drunk and impregnating themselves, spilling semen on the floor so the widow of brother doesn’t get pregnant, rape, etc.) But these are all descriptive stories, of what actually happened in the history of Israel and God’s chosen people.
It is certainly not prescriptive, in fact God speaks in many places about how he abhors such acts. However, the Bible also says about itself that all of scripture is edifying. 2 Timothy 3:16-17…
you also make a good point in pointing out that even the Bible gives credence to the evil of witchcraft (example – Saul goes to a witch and summons the dead soul of the prophet), which I believe is through the power of devils. And I can’t help but think that in Revelations, it says that at the end of times, the false prophet and the anti-christ will perform many miracles and fool many, many people, – some Bible versions say “all the people of earth” – and that perhaps one miracle included in that might be some form of resurrection (wounded by sword and yet lives). But that is purely speculation.
I guess my point is, if a world is built and written in a purely descriptive way, can the prescriptive morals and themes of the story itself not bring about edification?
I once wrote a story of redemption, but in it my protagonist’s love-interest gets raped by the antagonist. There were some Christians who told me I needed to rethink my story because what was happening was too evil. The point of the story was to delve into the problem of pain and why God allows pain and evil to exist in this world. It’s a deep theological question that is perhaps the most, if not then one of the top two reasons why people claim they don’t or don’t want to believe in God. It’s a very important question of whose answer can be very edifying…as long as the descriptive and prescriptive are taken in their correct turn…
Please don’t take offense. I’m not trying to be argumentative or confrontational… just wanted to bring this up as a discussion point of interest… I really do understand both points of view and don’t see anything theologically wrong with either side (solely based upon conviction…).
As far as the two ideas… @storysmith, will this be something that is delved into in your book? or is it just something for you to know? Because that may be a question you don’t need to answer… you could leave it a mystery as to how they came about or how it all works – – some experiment somewhere went wrong, and they came about…. etc. Tolkien said the elves were tortured and mutilated into orcs, but never said how that actually came to be or how their minds became twisted…. if that makes sense? elves tortured into orcs is about akin to saying humans experimented on turned into those things. you may not need to go further than that.
Christianity has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found difficult and left untried. ~ G.K.C.
No offense taken! This article sums up what I believe of how we should use hard topics such as sex/rape in our stories as God would have us do. God gives us perfect examples in the Bible such as your example of Lot and his two daughters. God was simplistic with the details but clear enough to figure out what happened without providing graphic details as the purpose is to state it happened but not how less the sin be glorified and distract the reader from its true purpose. I prefer to not state but more of a closed curtain effect where you get the hint and see the aftermath. I find it is better for the reader to decide on what happens. And that is up to one’s conviction as to how they believe God would have them write their story. With the saying of keeping our enemies closer, even though a Christian’s conviction will differ from another Christian, we need to keep these hard topics like sex/rape close in how we approach them less we cause another brother/sister to trip and stumble.
https://storyembers.org/how-should-christian-authors-depict-sex/
My story with its disregard for human life, the killing of innocents, slavery, and murder, it is pretty dark and sad. I hope to portray a dark world full of fear, war, and death and then show how always doing what is right no matter the cost is so important if we are to overcome evil in the world and not become apart of it.
My story also goes with the idea that we may not see the fruits of our labor within our lifetime or be recognized right away in history but if we look at those faithful men and women of the past, the great giants of faith, we know our deeds will echo through time and space before God no matter how big or small. I hope to have those moments where the reader cries in joy as they watch the character receive the fruit of their hard work after so much pain, trial, loss, and sacrifice, they finally see how the character’s actions and choices made such godly moral impact to their surroundings. I have been there myself sometimes in fictional stories but mostly in missionary stories and to me those are the most rememberable moments in the story.
will this be something that is delved into in your book? or is it just something for you to know? Because that may be a question you don’t need to answer… you could leave it a mystery as to how they came about or how it all works – – some experiment somewhere went wrong, and they came about…. etc. Tolkien said the elves were tortured and mutilated into orcs, but never said how that actually came to be or how their minds became twisted…. if that makes sense? elves tortured into orcs is about akin to saying humans experimented on turned into those things. you may not need to go further than that.
That is most likely what I will do in many cases of my story such as how the kragvora and their venom bio-weapon were created. I did think of exploring the kragvora’s venom in how it works because it might end up being used as the foundation for a bio-weaponized plague. This will lead to the discovery of the bio-nanobots tech which is way ahead of its current time. And that might possibly lead to a cure for the infected kragvora and their feral human/humanoid victims.
God was simplistic with the details but clear enough to figure out what happened without providing graphic details as the purpose is to state it happened but not how less the sin be glorified and distract the reader from its true purpose. I prefer to not state but more of a closed curtain effect where you get the hint and see the aftermath. I find it is better for the reader to decide on what happens. And that is up to one’s conviction as to how they believe God would have them write their story. With the saying of keeping our enemies closer, even though a Christian’s conviction will differ from another Christian, we need to keep these hard topics like sex/rape close in how we approach them less we cause another brother/sister to trip and stumble.
I whole-heartedly agree
That is most likely what I will do in many cases of my story such as how the kragvora and their venom bio-weapon were created. I did think of exploring the kragvora’s venom in how it works because it might end up being used as the foundation for a bio-weaponized plague. This will lead to the discovery of the bio-nanobots tech which is way ahead of its current time. And that might possibly lead to a cure for the infected kragvora and their feral human/humanoid victims.
sounds great!
Christianity has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found difficult and left untried. ~ G.K.C.
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