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Fantasy Writers

Fantasy Is NOT the Same Thing As Magic

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  • #142976
    Denali Christianson
    @denali-christianson

    Hey everyone! I just joined this forum in search of some old friends I left on the Wingfeather Saga forum awhile ago…

    But then I realized how cool this forum is, and this is definitely a debate that I’m very passionate about!

    I have no time in my life; could someone give me very short rundown of where we are in the debate rn? I’d rather not have to go read all 30 very long, very well-written posts!

    "The light perceives the very heart of the darkness." -Haldir

    #142979
    R.M. Archer
    @r-m-archer

    I don’t agree that Christian writers can never depict the supernatural. First of all, good literature is built upon truth. We must depict the world as it actually is (by which I do NOT mean fantasy worlds cannot be created with their own world building rules; rather, a Christian worldview must underlie it). We are not materialistic or naturalistic, depicting a universe devoid of anything spiritual or supernatural.

    All that to say, Christians must not promote witchcraft or depict it in a morally neutral manner. We do not condone or promote evil. But like R.M. Archer was saying, there is a difference between acknowledging evil exists and promoting it. It does not follow that we cannot acknowledge those things exist in fiction and we cannot call them out as evil. In 100 Cupboards by ND Wilson, there is a witch character who is very creepy and clearly portrayed as very, very evil. 100 Cupboards isn’t an explicitly Christian novel, but the author is a Christian, and that really shows in the book’s themes.

    I agree with all of this.

    I recently read a book called Recovering the Lost Art of Reading by Leland Ryken and Glenda Mathes, and there were some excellent chapters on what makes literature good, true, and beautiful. Their thoughts on ethics and portraying sin in fiction was super helpful and relevant to this discussion. Highly recommend it.

    Ooh, this one’s on my TBR.

    I was going to respond to other pieces of your response, too, but then I realized I just agree with the whole thing. XD All things should be brought under submission to Christ, and there are ways to subvert pagan ideas to support Christian themes. We obviously can’t just take them as they are, but they can be used to further a Christian worldview rather than undermine it. I wholeheartedly agree.

    it is literally making a false religion and false gods, how does it get more anti-biblical than that?

    Again, there’s a difference between creating false gods with the intention of worshiping them and creating false gods for the purposes of a story.

    But at this point I think it’s just a matter of conscience. If your conscience forbids you, by all means follow your conscience. I in no way mean to discourage that by putting forth the other side. My conscience is clear, so I have no problem carefully using these sorts of topics in my work in ways that I believe are in line with what Scripture teaches about them. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with either stance so long as they’ve been honestly reached through Scripture, which I believe is true of both our arguments.

    I think a lot of it, at this point, comes down to what we believe about why the supernatural is forbidden in Scripture, and we just don’t appear to be coming from the same belief on that point. There’s nothing wrong with that (again, given that both have been developed from knowledge and study of Scripture), it just means we’re highly unlikely to come to the same conclusion of what is or isn’t acceptable in this area.

    But I’ve really appreciated this discussion. It’s helped me work out some of my more specific thoughts on things, and I hope it’s been edifying for you (and those reading) as well. Thank you for bringing up the initial topic and being willing to bat arguments back and forth. 🙂

    Hey everyone! I just joined this forum in search of some old friends I left on the Wingfeather Saga forum awhile ago…

    Oh hi! I recognize you! XD

    I’m actually stepping out, but we’ve basically covered whether or not the word “magic” should be used solely to refer to supernatural powers as opposed to natural-to-the-fantastical-world powers; whether or not Christians should depict the supernatural; what counts as supernatural (since some stories blur the line between supernatural and natural-to-the-fantastical-world); whether or not fictional religions are acceptable in Christian works; what makes supernatural magic wrong… Um… I might be missing things, but I think those are the main points.

    Fantasy/dystopian/sci-fi author. Mythology nerd. Worldbuilding enthusiast. Singer. Fan of classic literat

    #142982
    Denali Christianson
    @denali-christianson

    Thanks Archer! I recognize you too! XD

    Okay, so now I’m just gonna sit here politely until someone replies and then I’m going to jump in, as I’m feeling happily overwhelmed right now! 🙂

     

    "The light perceives the very heart of the darkness." -Haldir

    #142985
    Noah Cochran
    @noah-cochran

    @r-m-archer

    Well, thanks for all your thoughts. 🙂 I hope that your writing will never shine a bad light on Christianity and that you will really think through the act of creating your own religions and supernatural beings, gods, and abilities (like Sanderson’s and Riordan’s) before you use them.


    @denali-christianson

    Hey Denali, glad to have ya! Tell me about yourself, what genres do you write? How long have you been writing? What’s your current WIP about?

    I’m feeling happily overwhelmed right now!

    I know the feeling. 😄

    Well since I’m the author of this chaos, let me give you a quick summary of my main arguing points, and where Archer, Taylor, and some of the others disagree with me.

    My main points were these: First, magic is supernatural, and even though some use it in different way today, the bible still calls it supernatural, and so I think it is anti-biblical to have characters use magic in the way books do. In other words, anything supernatural, demonic, or from a spiritual or sub-natural realm, is anti-christian to write or read, seeing that the bible teaches against it. This includes writing about angels, demons, witchcraft, magic, sorcery, and wizardry.

    My second main point was that fantasy does not mean magic, and is very different than magic. Fantasy (and I included definitions of these words in my original post), is something unreal/fictional, that could not be real in our world, placed in a made up world or universe. So, if I created a fantasy world, and in that fantasy world, people could harness energy from say, trees,  and use it in combat or to move things with their mind, that would not be magic or supernatural, that would be part of the natural world building. That is how I think people should create fantastical abilities. Instead, writers and readers use the word magic to describe things like that, making it supernatural and anti-biblical, which is very irritating. If you want to see more on my points, the original post is where it is. 🙂

    What are your thoughts on these views?

    Now, to the main rebuttals: I can’t encapsulate everyone’s nuanced views in one paragraph, but I’ll try to give you the gist of it.

    First off, the one point I did kinda agree with, was Archer saying that magic/supernatural abilities could be portrayed in a Christian like way if they were portrayed like any other sin (murder, theft, etc..). I think she is right, but only if it is done very carefully. Extremely, extremely, carefully. Because if it is not explicitly clear that the magic is sin, then we as Christians will be shedding a bad light on our religion, and our God.

    One point Taylor made was that definitions of words change, and so I shouldn’t dictate definitions to people. He is partly right, but since the bible clearly calls the act of witchcraft and magicians (in the old sense) a sin, then we should not use it in a fantastical setting where it could and probably would be confused with the supernatural. Two side points with this: First, even though people throw around the word magic now days to mean anything fantastical, it is still used in the supernatural sense most of the time by most authors, so the definition really hasn’t changed at all. Secondly, magic used in the sense of street or card magic like David Blaine does, is slang, and not the common way it is used, and besides, doing a card trick isn’t likely to make people think you’re actually doing real magic. Fun fact though, I do card tricks and other illusion tricks, but my dad actually encouraged me not to call it magic, even though it was clearly not magic already. I’m not completely against it being called magic, but he is right, we need to be a clearly distinct people from the world, and act and talk like bible students.

    As a whole, the others mostly disagreed that using magic is bad.  They don’t seem to think harnessing power from the supernatural realm, or creating other religions or gods is bad or anti-biblical. We argued some about Riordan and Sanderson books, and how I think those books (and will say it again, I have looked through The Way of Kings people, so quit saying I haven’t looked at the manuscript xD), are way to caught up with made up gods and supernatural realms.

    I didn’t include everything, but that was the main stuff. I’m intrigued to see your thoughts Denali! 🙂

    #142988
    Denali Christianson
    @denali-christianson

    @noah-cochran

    Hey! I’m glad to be here! Thanks for that very helpful summary! I have something to work with now! I write medieval high fantasy, and my current WIP is basically about a multi-dimensional world invaded by darkness which my three main characters have to battle. (If you want to know more, I put a detailed summary on my profile!) I’ve been writing my whole life!

    Okay, and now I’m going to dive into this epic debate!

    *takes deep breath*

    Regarding your first point: Correct me if I’m wrong, but from reading your definition of magic I’m basically hearing this basic syllogism:

    All supernatural things are magic.
    All magic is bad.
    Therefore, all supernatural things are bad.

    Again, if I’m misinterpreting your definition, then please tell me! However, if I’m not, then I would mention that the supernatural isn’t inherently bad: God does supernatural things that we would call miracles. Miracles from God aren’t bad, but they are supernatural. Therefore, this either means that we need to narrow the definition of magic to just the supernatural regarding demons, Satan, and general evil, or we need to acknowledge that magic isn’t totally bad. I would personally vote for the first. The definition I use for magic usually goes something like: harnessing the power of the supernatural, specifically through witchcraft or a similar practice, to make something occur that brings glory to the actor or achieves something for the actor’s benefit. This practice is selfish (not to mention perverted), and it brings glory to oneself, not God. Which I would argue is a rather tame definition of magic, but it gets the point across!
    Further, I would argue that sometimes we should write about these things, as long as we make it very clear that the practice of magic is evil and not to be condoned. Many people are ensnared by witchcraft and “magic,” making this a real issue. I believe that fantasy is a tool to be used to parallel real-world truths and counter real-world lies.
    Also, just a question, as you mentioned it in passing in your first point, but do you actually think it is inappropriate to write about angels? (just curious!)

    Regarding your second point: I completely agree! Fantasy is not a genre invented to write about perverse sins. It is simply a genre in which something occurs in an alternate world that is invented in the mind of the author. Further, I agree that powerful abilities such as harnessing energy are not magic. They are laws of nature in the world in question. For example, gravity is a natural law of this world. Do we ever call it magic? No. At least I hope not… 🙂

    I agree with Archer, as well as you. As I mentioned above, I think that we can, and even should, write about magic as sin. And since I already said a bunch about that, I’ll just leave this here.

    Regarding Taylor’s point: I partially agree. Definitions of words do change. If you’ve read Mere Christianity, C.S. Lewis points out how the definition of the word “gentleman” changed drastically throughout about a century of time, and how we should not allow the same thing to happen to the word “Christian.” However, I would disagree with his point that you shouldn’t dictate definitions to people. I’m a team policy debater. No one can have a debate without definitions, as no one will know what anyone else means. I think that definitions are to be shared and debated.

    Okay, sorry. I just had to geek out there for a second! Back to the debate:

    I got a little confused with your point that we shouldn’t use magic as it will be confused with the supernatural. Isn’t this a little contradictory to your definition? Perhaps I’m just confused and blowing a load of unnecessary smoke…

    I would mention here that the supernatural isn’t something to be afraid of or shy away from writing about. Whether we like it or not, we are living in a spiritual battle. I don’t think that because many of the things that occur in the supernatural are bad, we should just not write about it. It’s important to use what we see in this world when we write fantasy. (Tell me if that didn’t make sense – I think I may have just had a brain spasm!) 🙂

    So, here’s the thing: I don’t think that creating other religions is bad, as that has happened in this world. When we create other religions, show how hopeless they are, and then contrast that with the Truth, it makes the darkness seem all the darker and light seem all the brighter. As I have not read any of Riordan’s or Sanderson’s books, I won’t make any comments regarding them. However, (and I’m trying to figure out how to write this), I reiterate once again that I don’t think writing about the supernatural is inherently bad. Not writing about it doesn’t make it any less real, and it by doing so we are basically ignoring the problem, Satan, and the solution, God.

    Disclaimer: I get very passionate about these things! If anything I just wrote came across as rude or offensive, I apologize. I’m not trying to force my opinion on anyone! 🙂

    Okay that got realllly long…

     

    "The light perceives the very heart of the darkness." -Haldir

    #142991
    Isaiah
    @allertingthbs

    So I am a little late to the discussion here, but I can still throw in my thoughts on this. You are saying that any usage of the word magic is essentially us, as the authors, endorsing and invoking the practical art of magic as you describe it. It does not matter the context of the story, the world itself, and the readers’ understandings. Surprise, I do not agree with your stance on this.

    I believe that the context of the stories we make matter. Yes, we are Christians who are writers. Yes, we are writers who desire to draw people closer to understanding our viewpoints and faiths with our work. You define fantasy as “something unreal/fictional, that could not be real in our world, placed in a made up world or universe.” If we applied the same logic from magic to this fantasy world, we could never write a story where things are different than they are in the real world.

    Let’s boil it down. Saying something that is not true is a lie, and that’s one of the basic Ten Commandments. If we as authors have no freedom to use the literary medium to convey new and creative ideas, then we might as well all just be journalists. As soon as it is established that we are describing a world (a FANTASY world), I say it should be understood that we can use different tools to make the story. Magic included.

    If we as writers do not have the freedom to write about things that DID NOT HAPPEN (which can be described as a lie if we are being stone cold about the rules) then I would agree that we should leave magic out of our stories. As authors who can write about half lizard men who wander around fire mountains in search of a piece of ice that never melts if we pleased, I say we can say the word magic without automatically endorsing and encouraging actual real-life sorcery.

    "Only a Sith deals in absolutes"
    -Quipmaster 2005

    #142993
    Denali Christianson
    @denali-christianson

    @allertingthbs

    Just wanted to say that I think you made some really really really good points which hadn’t even occurred to me!

    My only concern with what you said (and I know this wasn’t directed at me, so if you want to ignore my comment, that’s fine!) is that people oftentimes don’t care much about context. I’ve noticed this especially in regards to Christian fantasy.

    If we have, for example, a guy everyone refers to as the Maker, what is everyone’s first thought? No, I’m guessing it’s not “hey, look! Here’s this this guy named the Maker! Due to the context of the story, he probably doesn’t represent God.” The point being, even if the author writes about a guy named the Maker and the context of the story doesn’t have anything to do with him being God, people are still going to have some difficulty getting away from how similar to God he sounds.

    This is the main problem I see with using the word “magic.” It’s not so much about how we’re using the word as the word itself. When people hear the word magic, they either think of fluffy unicorns and fairy dust, or sorcery. That’s not something we can get away from. The word will carry this connotation with it wherever it goes, including into a fantasy world where it’s used differently. That’s the biggest concern. By using the word magic, even if we redefine it as something other than sorcery, is still going to make people think of sorcery.

    Okay. I think that’s all I got. Loved your point about how we have to recreate things to make a fantasy world, which isn’t lying!

    "The light perceives the very heart of the darkness." -Haldir

    #142994
    Taylor Clogston
    @taylorclogston

    @denali-christianson

    “When people hear the word magic, they either think of fluffy unicorns and fairy dust, or sorcery.”

    That’ll depend strongly on your audience. People raised to think the word “magic” means “witchcraft” will think in the way you described. Most other people will think of video games where you throw a fireball at a dude, something so completely tied to “I want to attack the dude, but at a distance, and with a cool explosion” that there’s nothing spiritual about it.

    Only a subset of Christians (and maybe Muslims?) among the demographic of fantasy readers associate the word “magic” with problematic spirituality. That’s one of the reasons some wicca practitioners spell it “magick,” because they believe it calls back to a time when the word had actual spiritual connotations.

    "...the one with whom he so sought to talk has already interceded for him." -The Master and Margarita

    #142996
    Denali Christianson
    @denali-christianson

    @taylorclogston

    That is a good point. I don’t personally think of it like that because I’ve been raised to think of magic as sorcery. I can definitely see how the fireball video game thing could be true.

    However, I will point out that from what I’ve seen, the vast majority of the fantasy audience definitely has an impression of magic something along the lines of sorcery.

    "The light perceives the very heart of the darkness." -Haldir

    #143002
    Noah Cochran
    @noah-cochran

    @denali-christianson

    How long have you been writing Denali?

    then I would mention that the supernatural isn’t inherently bad

    This is your reoccurring argument throughout your comment, so let me drill down on it. As you said, miracles, exist, the spiritual realm is all around us (as I’ve already said, the spiritual realm is realer than the natural realm), angels and demons are real, and you’re right, obviously some of these things are not bad, God and angels are not bad. However, that does not mean we should write or read about them. The bible teaches against messing with the supernatural realm, even if it is “the good side (aka, God and angels and heaven).” So yes, supernatural isn’t inherently bad, that’s not my point, my point is that we should’t be messing with it, and thus we also shouldn’t be having are characters mess with it. I have one possible caveat with this: I’m assuming that if you read a book where the character was given powers by the God of the universe (like in the bible) then you would be okay with it. I think I could be convinced that specific scenario is okay, but anything (and I mean anything) else is to dangerous. Personally, I’m not even going to write a book where the Creator God gives powers to people, I just don’t feel comfortable messing with the supernatural even to that level. And I’ll say this again, I’m not saying that supernatural is bad or evil, I’m saying we shouldn’t mess with it.

    So I’m a little confused, according to your definition of magic (which is the right, and biblical definition), you seem to agree that messing with magic/supernatural is sinful and bad. But then it seems that you are also okay with it in some scenarios, could you clarify this a little for me?

    This practice is selfish (not to mention perverted), and it brings glory to oneself, not God.

    So, I had to comment on this, because I’m not exactly sure what you were inferring, but it seemed that you were saying that if you use magic for God and his glory than it would be okay in a fantasy world, or maybe even in our world. Is that what you were saying? Because even if magic did bring glory to God in a world, I still think the bible teaches against using it, or in our case, writing about it.

    Yes, angels are part of the supernatural, and so I think the bible teaches against trying to connect with them in real life, researching them in real life (however people do that, but they do), or writing about them. The bible tells us all we need to know about angels and demons, we should not be messing with that realm. Stick to the natural.

    Further, I agree that powerful abilities such as harnessing energy are not magic. They are laws of nature in the world in question. For example, gravity is a natural law of this world. Do we ever call it magic? No. At least I hope not…

    Couldn’t have said it better myself. 🙂 This is how I want my fantasy, and frankly, I don’t understand why people think it improves books to add magic and supernatural stuff, it just makes books more cheesy in my opinion.

    I would mention here that the supernatural isn’t something to be afraid of or shy away from writing about. Whether we like it or not, we are living in a spiritual battle.

    As I said, just because it is real and all around us, doesn’t mean we should be messing with it. And when people say they are going to write a book that uses the supernatural realm in it, that usually means they are going to have a character connect with it somehow, which is blatantly against what the bible teaches (Chuck Black does that in his books for instance).

    However, I would disagree with his point that you shouldn’t dictate definitions to people. I’m a team policy debater. No one can have a debate without definitions, as no one will know what anyone else means. I think that definitions are to be shared and debated.

    Agreed, and this is especially true when the bible and God is the one saying what magic is and defining it, it doesn’t matter what we or the world recall it.

    I got a little confused with your point that we shouldn’t use magic as it will be confused with the supernatural. Isn’t this a little contradictory to your definition?

    Sorry, what I meant was if you were to use magic in the way Taylor and the others are saying you can (non-supernatural), then people will get confused on whether or not it is supernatural due to the fact that the word magic still most commonly means supernatural, even by the world’s definitions. This point is kinda moot, because God and the bible define it, so it doesn’t matter if the world tries to change it. Probably shouldn’t have brought it up, it is just confusing the matter. xD

    So, here’s the thing: I don’t think that creating other religions is bad, as that has happened in this world. When we create other religions, show how hopeless they are, and then contrast that with the Truth, it makes the darkness seem all the darker and light seem all the brighter.

    I’m torn. If you create religions in a fantasy world in the way you are describing, then you will also have to create a a made up religion that is Christianity to call those other religions false, and that is dangerous in itself. It just turns to chaos when you bring religions into fantasy. This is the way I will do it when I write my fantasy series: I will have a Creator, who is God (such as Eru Illvatar in Tolkien’s works), and the majority of the people will treat him as who he is, the Creator God. If I have any other “religions,” they will be given a cult like status, and not be utilized by the protagonists (same as having atheism in my book). There will be no made up worship service to simulate Church for the Creator in the fantasy world, I just don’t think that is okay to do.

    Not writing about it doesn’t make it any less real, and it by doing so we are basically ignoring the problem, Satan, and the solution, God.

    I’m confused. You seem to have agree that magic/harnessing the supernatural is sinful and “perverse” as you put it, correct? So by this comment do you mean writing the sin in the same way you would write murder is okay? If so, that is what Archer was saying, and I think I agree, you just have to be extremely careful. But to be clear, that is not the way authors like Sanderson, Rothfuss, Riordan, and Rowling use it, those authors are messing with gods, supernatural realms, spells, etc…

    Disclaimer: I get very passionate about these things! If anything I just wrote came across as rude or offensive, I apologize. I’m not trying to force my opinion on anyone!

    Don’t worry about it, I loved reading your thoughts. 🙂


    @allertingthbs

    I believe that the context of the stories we make matter. Yes, we are Christians who are writers.

    This is the essence of your point I believe, and I think I’m agreeing with Denali when I say that though context does matter, the bible and God override what we can do with context. If I use magic or supernatural abilities or realms in a book, that is clearly against what the bible teaches, no matter what context we invent.


    @taylorclogston

    Come on man. xD The audience and what they think don’t matter, God is our ultimate audience, and what He thinks is what matters. The bible tells us what magic and witchcraft are, and so we know exactly what he thinks of those things, no matter how people try to change them. Besides, those fireballs in those games are considered supernatural, they are considered magic. People don’t consider those abilities in games like Skyrim or Zelda to be part of the natural world, they consider them supernatural, or at least the people who know what magic means do, which is most people. Also, the people raised to believe that’s what magic means, were raised by people who follow the rules and definitions of the bible, so I’m not sure what your point was on that.

    Only a subset of Christians (and maybe Muslims?) among the demographic of fantasy readers associate the word “magic” with problematic spirituality

    Emphasis on “problematic spirituality,” in other words, they don’t see a problem with it, but they do know it’s supernatural. Many of those people (and by many, I mean most, because most people do know or could easily be shown that magic means supernatural), think that dealing with the supernatural and magic is just fine, but that doesn’t mean that don’t connect it with witchcraft, supernatural, and sub-natural realms, in fact, almost everyone does, even those video game players.

    However, I will point out that from what I’ve seen, the vast majority of the fantasy audience definitely has an impression of magic something along the lines of sorcery.

    What Denali says here is really my point, all these people know that it is sorcery, witchcraft, supernatural, but they’re just okay with it, they don’t know the bible teaches against, or if they do, they don’t care.

    #143013
    Taylor Clogston
    @taylorclogston

    @noah-cochran

    Come on man. xD The audience and what they think don’t matter, God is our ultimate audience, and what He thinks is what matters.

    This is going to be the point after which I have to bow out. To say God has a problem with the English word “magic,” a word which necessarily does not exist in a book which was not written in English, such that a thing becomes evil even if it is not essentially evil before that label is applied, is not only to put words in God’s mouth but to engage in a kind of magic yourself, to believe uttering a word has the power to bestow the evil you think is intrinsically tied to it.

    Words mean things. Words sometimes even mean different things.

    I’ll close with an example you may or may not find interesting. One of the words which does exist in the Bible and which is often translated in words and phrases as “magic” is the verb root “anan (עָנַן).” This word has multiple meanings, depending on its stem. The “Poel” stem meaning of “soothsaying” or “witchcraft” occurs ten of eleven times in the Old Testament. You have your condemnation of diviners, witches, soothsayers (note that almost every example of magic in the Bible is of fortune-telling or divination, of trying to grasp the future instead of trusting in God’s prophets), but you also have one single other use of this word, using the “Piel” stem.

    This comes in Genesis 9:14, and God Himself uses it.

    14 And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud: 15 And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh. (KJV)

    With a word that means witchcraft in every other OT usage, God establishes His covenant with man.

    Moreover: The masculine noun form “anan (עָנָן)” means cloud, and is not only used in Gen 9:14 directly after the verb form above, but is also used to refer to the pillar of cloud and the other times God was present in a cloud in Exodus, Leviticus, and Numbers.

    If a word for “magic” in the Old Testament could be not only used by God to establish His covenant but also to refer to the cloud from which He spoke to Israel, I believe without the tiniest shred of doubt that the English word “magic” can be used without inherent spiritual danger.

    "...the one with whom he so sought to talk has already interceded for him." -The Master and Margarita

    #143017
    Noah Cochran
    @noah-cochran

    @taylorclogston

    This is going to be the point after which I have to bow out. To say God has a problem with the English word “magic,” a word which necessarily does not exist in a book which was not written in English, such that a thing becomes evil even if it is not essentially evil before that label is applied, is not only to put words in God’s mouth but to engage in a kind of magic yourself, to believe uttering a word has the power to bestow the evil you think is intrinsically tied to it.

    I do see you point, and as I said, there truly is some ground to it. But since the bible, and in the church (in all denominations, studying medieval and renaissance history might help you see it better), the word magic has always been in equivalent to witchcraft and sinful harnessing of the supernatural, I just want to be the best Christian I can and not use it.

    Even if the word completely changes meaning like you say it is (which I would actually argue only some people say it is, many fantasy fans still consider it supernatural), and all your examples of the word hold true (and you do make good points); at the very least, I think using the word magic and supporting it could confuse other Christians, and paint a bad, more worldly light on Christianity, and that’s  why God would be displeased as are ultimate audience, so I did not mean that God would be confused by English or anything like that, I meant that the way we taint Christianity and act more worldly would upset God, and that is not putting words in Gods mouth, that is what the bible says.

    I believe without the tiniest shred of doubt that the English word “magic” can be used without inherent spiritual danger.

    I don’t think you ever quite understood me here. xD I am not saying that magic and supernatural means danger or badness, God is supernatural, what He does is supernatural (like in your examples), so of course I’m not saying that. What I’m saying is that we as humans should not be getting anywhere close to messing with the spiritual realm, the good or bad kind, unless God literally gives us something from that realm (which even if He did, is still no excuse to start digging further and trying to mess with the supernatural more).

    Well, hopefully your or others’ writing never misleads anyone or shines a bad light on the bible. Thanks for joining the discussion Taylor, we’ll just have to disagree on this one I guess, I enjoyed reading your thoughts. 🙂

    #143022
    Denali Christianson
    @denali-christianson

    Hey just wanted to let everyone know that I’m currently drowning in work, so I’m not going to be able to post rebuttals on here for a bit. I haven’t disappeared off the face of planet earth, I promise! 🙂

    "The light perceives the very heart of the darkness." -Haldir

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Stop Using Meaningless Character Questionnaires

Stop Using Meaningless Character Questionnaires

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