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@r-m-archer

I think we’ll have to agree to disagree on this point. I don’t believe it’s anti-biblical to portray a fact of the world, be it physical or spiritual, so long as it’s done with biblical truth in mind and with care not to mislead readers.

There is a huge difference between portraying a fact (showing that it exists) and having a protagonist or character utilize spiritual or demonic power. That is witchcraft, and the bible explicit teaches against messing with the realms of demons, angels, magic, witchcraft, and sorcery. Thoughts?

Oh, then I think I agree with that quote, I like it. 🙂

@rose-colored-fancy

Thanks for the response Rose. 🙂

I’m going to summarize your statement as “The term magic as used to describe special abilities in an alternate world is overused and often deceptive as it can be confused with real magic.”

Yes it is overused, but to be clear, I think it is incorrect and bad for the word magic to be used to describe fantastical abilities or elements. It’s not about it being confused with real magic, it’s about us not using the word magic at all. Magic is magic, sorcery is sorcery.  Thoughts?

Personally, I have often decided not to read books purely because the descriptor “Magical” or “Magic” was in the description or somewhere in the reviews.

I literally do not read books that use the word magic to describe their fantastical elements unless there is some very special and rare reason it is used, so yeah, same here. xD

@sparrowhawke

Thanks for the response!

All stories with magic are fantasy, but not all fantasy stories have magic.”

Any story can have magic/supernatural, fantasy, or historical fiction, or sci-fi. I just wanted to clear up my view on that. So yes, not all fantasy has magic, but I wouldn’t say that all stories with magic are fantasy, magic does not make fantasy, magic makes supernatural.

but I don’t think we need to go policing peoples’ use of the word ‘magic’.

I’m not going to force my views down anyone’s throat, but I do think that since the bible teaches against witchcraft and magic, we shouldn’t be using that word, no matter how the world uses it (which btw, 99% of the time, people still mean supernatural when they use the word magic, even though the term magic system is getting confused with non-supernatural things as he talked about).

I shall give you an example from one of my WIPs. Everyone, every race in this world has some kind of control over one of the elements. This is a natural-born ability and I believe you would not call this alone magic. However, these abilities can be used in good and bad ways and the users of these abilities can strengthen their abilities by connecting to the supernatural realm–either being strengthened by the God-figure of the story or by the dark forces. Would you call both of those uses magic? Or would you only call it magic when that ability is being strengthened by the dark forces?

Yes, the every race in your fantasy world being born with an ability to control the elements is cool, and not magic or supernatural (unless you call it that or make it feel ritualistic). Using the supernatural realm to harness power or strengthen abilities, dealing with the supernatural/spiritual realm no matter if you get it from God or from demons or from some made up place. Is it magic if you get it from God? I don’t think I would use the word magic if I God gave it to you, but it is still supernatural, so my advice would be that you do not mess with the supernatural or spiritual realm in your book, or read books about that. In other words, even if it isn’t technically magic, it is supernatural, which means I would not mess with it.

The abilities granted by each can be the same–telling the future and raising the dead are the two I have considered so far–but the one would be Lawful, as in prophecy and miraculous resurrection, while the other would be Chaotic and Evil and be termed divination and necromancy respectively. It is based on how the user strengthens their inborn powers whether such ability/magic is Good or Evil. The God-figure would never grant power for an Evil use.

This is the argument I’ve heard several people use. Messing in the magical, supernatural, or spiritual realms is a thing that should never be done even if it is “used for good.” In the middle ages, there were many alleged happenings of magic, and along with them came the debate on whether or not “magic/supernatural for good” was okay. Everyone agreed dark magic and magic for bad was evil, but the debate was whether or not there were times where it was okay. Most Christians agreed that it was still evil, and through the bible, this is shown to be true.

And Bethania, I just want to say that I thought that plot sounded great–except the supernatural part. Is there a reason you don’t just want to make all your fantastical elements be part of the natural part of that world? Disregarding my biblical reasons for  a moment and thinking from a purely enjoyment perspective, I think fantastical things are far more interesting and less cheesy than supernatural/magic.

I don’t know if any of this has added to the discussion but I thought I would throw it out there. In conclusion, I understand your distinction between natural abilities and magic, but I would just call it all magic, and probably just distinguish between white magic and black magic.

You have added a lot! I appreciate your reply!

I tried to show that magic is bad no matter what, and white magic is a myth, so hopefully I was half-way coherent. xD

I am guessing that you wouldn’t read Harry Potter? Are you familiar with Brandon Sanderson’s magic systems, and if so, what do you think of them?

Correct, Harry Potter is one of the books that clearly use magic and the supernatural, and in the very way the bible teaches against. Okay, so Sanderson is one of those people that calls all his fantastical creations magic systems (including his fantastical elements in Skyward and Steelheart, both of which I have read). Those books do not use the word magic, and I think they are totally fine. As for his Mistborn series, as far as I can tell, it uses the word magic and maybe even has gods and demons? I am extremely disappointed by this fact, because the premise of that first novel in the series looked great. As for the Stormlight Archive, the storm powered weapons and abilities are great, and almost exactly how I would build a fantastical ability in a world (i.e, they are greatly related to the world and how it works, the storms). However, the series has a lot to do with false religions, supernatural beings (gods, according to wikifandom), and there is something called Old Magic in it. So no I’m not okay with those two series. Very disappointing, I wanted to read those books.

Honestly this discussion kind of reminds me of the beginning of Avatar: the Last Airbender where Aang says, “It’s not magic, it’s airbending! I control the air currents to make myself fly.” Although I’m not sure if you’d appreciate that show either.

I don’t know enough about it to say whether or not I’m okay with it, but if it is portrayed as something that is supernatural or magic, it would probably be fine. I like that quote, it is logic and good sense. 🙂

@joelle-stone

And yes, we need to rant sometime.

I’ll compose a message sometime and ask you you’re specific views. 🙂

*can already feel heat boiling in my stomach as I think about this subject*

Good, I can feel your anger, take a weapon, strike me down, and your journey to the–oh wait, I wasn’t supposed to say that out-loud. 😉 xD