Activity

*DON’T KILL ME NOTE*

All the “you”s in this are hypothetical yous. If anyone reading this is convicted, that’s the Holy Spirit working, not me. I don’t mean to condemn or accuse anyone hear.

“I agree that a dead man can do nothing, and that all people are born into sin. Yes, God does have every right to condmn every single person to eternal death. So why didn’t He? I believe it’s because He loves us. But, with your argument, that would have to mean He doesn’t love some people. And somehow I don’t see that in the character of God. Do you believe that every person was made in the image of God…or just His chosen?”

Yes, God loves those he has saved. Yes, he loves us even as his creations. But no, I don’t believe he loves everyone and wants to save everyone. For that to be the case, one of two things would have to happen: either we wouldn’t have the free will to sin, and so we would be sinless beings like the angels, not needing salvation because we never sinned, OR God is too weak to see his will through. “I totally agree not all people will believe…all I have to do is look around.” Well, if your scenario of God loving everyone were true, then this statement would lead to the conclusion that God is too weak to do anything and WE have power over him. I don’t believe that. (this isn’t an attack on you at all – I merely am pointing out the logical conclusion of that specific scenario – don’t be mad at me (= )

“Can we know if we are God’s elect?”

Yes. That would be the Holy Spirit producing the fruit of the Gospel in our lives. If we truly are saved and have repented and believe the sacrifice of Christ to be the salvation of our souls through the grace of God and the working of the Spirit, we or people around us will start to see the difference he makes in our lives. If we are truly saved, it should turn our self-focused world upside-down as we learn to love and serve our brothers and sisters in Christ and as we tell the story of what changed our lives to those around us. That is the Spirit working saving faith in us and growing us more and more into the image of the Son of God. Isnt that a crazy concept?!?

“I totally agree not all people will believe…all I have to do is look around. “I believe that when in John 3 16 salvation is extended to the world, I believe that it is extended to all kinds of men, not every man. And that, though it may seem sad, is just” Not sure how that is just. It’s definitely not fair for every person to not have a chance at life. And isn’t fairness part of justice?”

Justice by what standard? If God makes the rules, God knows the rules, and God enforces the rules, what can we say about them? He created us and the rules, and he created us to NOT know everything. If we knew everything, we would be God, and that doesn’t bring him any glory!

So, no, fairness would not be a part of justice the way you’re looking at it. But from God’s perspective, absolutely! It isn’t fair that some people are saved! That is absolutely outside of justice. Justice is getting what you deserve, and salvation isn’t it. What we deserve is death. So God giving salvation to some is gracious of him! Not unfair that he didn’t give it to all! Sin still must be punished, and if Christs perfect blood didn’t atone for it then ours will by spending the rest of eternity separate from him.

In Job 40:2, God asks Job: “will a faultfinder contend with the Almighty? Let him who reproves God answer it.” We don’t know everything. We can’t. That’s God’s job. We only get to trust and obey.

““It isn’t enough to acknowledge the conquering King’s legitimacy after you’ve been conquered if you want to live; you must serve him while you have the choice.” I agree. But we have the choice. The chance to choose Him before we are forced too.”

No. And Yes. We may choose to serve him in our actions in this life. That is where free will comes in to play. But we do not have power over God to have a say in our salvation. The Spirit helps us to serve God when he is given to us. We are given the grace to repent and believe, and from there the Spirit contiinues to impart grace upon grace to us to help us in our daily walk. Yes, we can choose whether we want to say something hurtful or something kind to a friend or family member, but we do not control whether we are given the grace that is required for us to repent and believe in the first place! It’s a circular thing, but we are given grace to do harder things that we need more grace for.

Grace is the point here, not justice. Justice, and fairness, would be all people dying. Mercy would be for all people to simply not die. And grace is not only that we don’t die, we get to LIVE and REIGN with Christ ON HIGH because he made it possible!

“You say if God wants us He’ll save us…if that’s true then why do we need to choose to serve Him?”

Because we love him, and he told us to. And technically speaking, I suppose you wouldn’t have to serve him if you were an elect but didn’t choose to serve him, but at that point you would be witnessed to and saved! Being one of God’s elect doesn’t mean that you’re automatically saved – it just means that God has chosen to save you – in his ways and his time.

If you don’t love him and WANT to serve him, chances are you are either in a slump in the Christian life (that does happen – we get discouraged pretty easily) or you aren’t saved. Whether you will be later in your life or not, that’s God’s business. Not mine.

““No one who is offered salvation turns it down, and no one who is not offered salvation may obtain it.” This is what gets at me. I believe everyon is offered salvation. Can you tell if someone has been offered salvation?”

Yes. They will be saved. In the moment, maybe not, but God works his will out in his purpose to his glory! If they are an elect of God, they will be saved. Period. Now, later, earlier, whatever. God works out his plans to his glory. His will cannot be thwarted.

“Do you witness to people? But if you did wouldn’t it be pointless, because they don’t have the choice of accepting or rejecting what you present-the Gospel. So maybe you don’t, since their destiny is already decided.”

Yes, I witness. Technically, yes, its pointless. But as you mentioned, we are called to do it.
And by the way, what you preach and witness with shouldn’t be “god loves you” or “you can be saved”. We simply can’t know that. The message that we are to preach is repent and believe. They can’t do that without the Spirit, and that is what we can influence. That’s what we’re told to do, so we do it.

“Yet Christ commanded His disciples to make disciples of all people. So did the disciples know which ones were chosen and which were not?

Probably not, no.

“Also, do you believe we can know if we are saved (or one of God’s chosen)? If not, we have no hope to offer. We cannot give what we don’t have.”

Youre right. We can’t give what we don’t have. We can offer what we do have, and only those who God has predestined to save will accept what we offer. We offer life.
The world knows that its dying. People are afraid of death and always have been. What we have to offer is their life. Christ paid for their lives, if they are of the elect, and we can be the one to tell them how and who and what! God may sovereignly choose to work through us, and that is a greater honor than any I know of.

““It bothers me when people say you should ‘choose Jesus’, because that really challenges the entire sovereignty of God. If we, the created, can make a choice about our eternal status, then it removes God from the picture almost entirely. in that scenario, He offers the salvation, but he has no power over us or it; we have power over God.” I disagree. In His sovereignty, He knows what we will choose – but we still have to choose. His desire is for all men to call on Him for salvation, but in His sovereignty He knows not all men will. He has all power, but He does not force us to accept what He offers. I don’t think it removes God from the picture at all. He calls different people in different ways.”

Yes! We choose, in a manner of speaking, when it is offered to us. But it isn’t offered to everyone, and those who it is offered to accept it! I don’t think he “forces” us to accept it either. But what we are offered is so great, so beyond anything we could even dream of accomplishing ourselves, that we do receive when offered.

“Some are raised by Christians, some have a divine revelation, some look around them and see the evidence of God in nature…and so forth and so on.

I think that’s not quite right. I don’t mean to botch what youre sayiing by splitting paragraphs up like this, but it needs to be addressed.

The only way that men can be saved is through the Word of God. Divine revelation… I don’t know about that, but both being raised by Christians and seeing the creation are only one step. Parents are sinful, and the creation is fallen, and though they can point us to God, they cannot give us salvation. Only God can do that through his word. Whether the first time you hear the word is reading it, or hearing a sermon, or hearing a friend share their story, the Word is the only thing that can save. (there are verses that say this, but I can’t find any right now – on a time crunch)

“But in these cases, and any other, they must choose. I came to the place where I realized I could not be saved by my parents faith, by my lifestyle, by what I did or did not do. I chose to accept the forgiveness of God that has been offered to me through the blood of Jesus Christ. And if offered to me, why not every man? I cannot claim to be any more worthy of His sacrifice than any other person. I am not. As Paul said in 1 Timothy 1:15…I am chief among sinners. In Romans 6:10 it says He died once for all…do you also interpret this ‘all’ as ‘all kinds’ and not ‘all men’?

Youre right there. It doesn’t have to do with worthiness. It has to do with grace. If my grandma gives my brother a new skateboard and not me, it doesn’t mean that he is more worthy than I am to have a new skeatboard (necessarily – this is a faulty illustration for a few reasons), but that she wanted to give him a skateboard and didn’t want to give me one. That doesn’t say anything about him or me, but only about my grandma.

Now, my grnadma is obviously sinful, and maybe she does think that he’s worthier than I am. But that doesnt really have much to do with God. He makes the choices, and we are not one to argue with them.

“That is not something I believe, and truly it offends me when people say that. It is an insult to God that we put ourselves in power over him. and that is exactly what we do when we claim that we had a hand in our salvation.

We take credit for God’s redeeming power in our lives.” Anybody who is truly seeking would not presume to have power over God. You’re right…only God can work transforming, redeeming power in our lives. Choosing to follow Him is not assuming to take credit for salvation. If Christ had never come to this sinful earth we would be lost with no reconciliation to God. But He did come, offering that reconciliation which we (mankind) do not deserve. “God is jealous of His glory. He will not stand to have it stolen. He will have his glory, whether we intend to glorify him or not. He is the author here, not us. We do not write our own stories. We do have free will, and we do make our own choices about many things, but God’s will cannot be thwarted. We cannot take power into our own hands.” I agree. We do not ‘write’ our stories…but we make choices in them.”

Sort of. In Christ, we can choose to sin or not to sin, or how to strive after him, but we don’t choose whether we are saved or not, or whether we ought to be saved or not. That is God’s prerogative. He created, He made the rules, we broke them, so he gets to enforce them. That’s not something we can argue with.

“Have you ever read the book “Just Do Something” by Kevin DeYoung? If not, you should…every Christian seeking to do the will of God should. He talks about the will of God…His will of decree, what He has ordained – it will happen, it is what is; 2ndly, His will of desire, what He desires from us, and how things should be; 3rdly, His will of direction, what He directs us to do. I don’t claim to fully understand God’s will(s), but this book has helped. Quote: “I am simply noting that God is sovereign, but He is not the author of sin. We are under His sovereignty, but we are not free from responsibility for our actions.” End quote. When you say His will cannot be thwarted, I assume you mean His will of decree…I agree. So, do you believe salvation is a gift? If yes, than it is a free offer, and the price has already been paid. When one of your family or friends gives you a gift, you make the choice to take it or reject it. So it is with the greatest gift of all – salvation. If it is not a gift, then we have to earn it. We, in our fallenness, have to try and strive for something that we can never get on our own. We have to surrender to the power of God, accept His gift (He paid for it), and live according to His word. Don’t you want to give good things to the people you love? And you were made in the image of God, so how much greater is God’s desire to give good things to the people He loves. Does He love every person He has ever created? I believe so. If He does, then He wants to give them good things. The greatest thing of all? Salvation.”

I havent read the book. I may look into that, thanks! (=

Yes, salvation is a gift. Do you refuse a gift? I mean, really. Do you shove it back in their faces, thumb your nose, and tell them how much you don’t want/need it? I don’t! And this is EXACTLY, I mean exactly, what we do when (if) we refuse salvation. It is a gift. It is a gift to be accepted.

I agree. NO, we don’t earn it! We can’t! That’s where many of the pagan religions in the world go wrong – they try to earn their life. They can’t, and neither can anyone else.

“If He really cares about every person, and I believe He does, then He will not withhold the gift of salvation from them. He has offered it. Paid dearly for it. We can accept it from His generous hands with humility and thankfulness, or we can reject it in self-centeredness and denial.”

Every person is predestined to one of two eternities: either they are one of God’s elect and they will be saved and taken up into his presence, or they are not saved and will pay the price for their sins. The statement “if he really cares” is problematic to me; if by cares you mean is concerned for their salvation, then no, I would say that he doesn’t care about everyone. If you mean cares by making sure they get what he has planned for them, which I’m pretty sure you don’t mean, then I would agree. Some will be condemned to hell for their sins, and others will be forgiven their sins and be with God forever. But if by cares you mean that God loves everyone and wants everyone to be happy and with him forever, then I would disagree. God isn’t looking to save every man. If he were, there would be no glory in it. We can see in unbelievers how far He has brought us. We can give God all the glory for that, if we believe that he truly is the only one to give credit to for it.

I do not believe that those who are offered salvation will deny it – whether they can, I would have to say that they cannot. There can be no rejection of God if he truly is seeking you out. He has power over every character in His Story, and they will listen to him.

And like you said, it is the greatest gift ever. Who would refuse that?

Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts with me, @ori-art. I am so grateful.

May this discussion and all others be to God’s glory!