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@karthmin @princess-foo @morreafirebird

This is such a fascinating discussion! To be honest, I’d never really thought about the difference between the ways Tolkien and Lewis dealt with women, but having read a few biographies of both of them and analyses of their works, I’ve got a few points to add.

One is that Tolkien was Catholic and he had a deep veneration and respect for Mary. I’ve even heard numerous reliable sources talk about Galadriel being a sort of Mother Mary figure in LoTR. Galadriel does fill a very motherly, caring and protective role, as you pointed out, Martin. She also serves as a guide and guardian for Frodo and is generally a higher feminine power.

Tolkien also tended to idolize women, I think. His mother died when he was twelve and he’d always had a very close relationship with her. He also regarded her as a sort of martyr, who had been rejected by her Protestant family when she converted to Catholicism. After he was orphaned, he spent years pretty much solely in the care and company of men. A priest adopted him and he went to university where he was surrounded pretty much exclusively by men, and then later into the army, where again he was almost entirely surrounded by men. He spent years courting his wife, and finally married her and then based the character of Luthien off her.  So, as you can see, he spent a lot of time idolizing these two particular women in his life and seems to have very little in the way of other interaction with women (though he might have had a daughter? I can’t remember). Largely, his experience with women and femininity was positive, almost perfect.

Another thing worth mentioning is that Tolkien was very familiar with the myths and stories of England and Scandinavia and a central theme of these stories (particularly the legends of King Arthur) is the concept of sacred femininity, which was basically the idea that women were sort of exempt from humanity, and some how being more holy than men. So you’ll see that in King Arthur the women are almost never evil. Even some of the women portrayed by more modern media as evil, such as Morgan Le Fay and Morgause, are not portrayed as evil in the older stories but more…above normal morality?? It is, after all, Morgan and Morgause, Arthur’s sisters who have been trying to kill him this whole time, who take him to eternal rest in Avalon. Several other prominent holy figures are women as well, such as the Ladies of the Lake (there are several), the Grail Women, and several women who appear in visions, and then women like Elaine, Lancelot’s wife and the Grail Princess.

Anyway, all that ramble is to say that Tolkien, both through life and literary experience, tended to portray women in positions of power and holiness.

Lewis, on the other hand, had even less experience with women. He didn’t get married until he was in his fifties and before that virtually his only encounters with girls and women was the mother of one of his friends who cared for until her death, a bunch of schoolgirls who stayed with him during the war, and his goddaughter Lucy Barfield. He does tend to portray women (or young girls really) more realistically than Tolkien, but every symbol of absolute evil (excepting Tash) is a woman (the White Witch, the Lady of the Green Kirtle, etc). He also seems rather obsessed with women tempting men into evil (Digory with Jadis, Edmund with the White Witch, Caspian with the old hag, Rilian and Eustace with the Green Lady). He also likes pitting seductive feminity against pure feminity (Polly and Lucy being completely impervious to the White Witch’s charms) and having pure feminity undo much of the harm caused by seductive feminity (The White Witch fatally wounding Edmund and Lucy being the one to heal him, Jill being the one entrusted with the signs to help bring back Rilian).

Anyway, that’s just some interesting observations I’ve made, piggybacking off a lot of the stuff you guys have already said.

Also, on the topic of Eowyn, I related to Eowyn’s arc a lot. Due to the media I consumed as a kid, and the interests I had (very male dominated interests, such as piloting) I grew up feeling very disconnected from my feminity. I hated being seen as girly because it was always portrayed as a bad thing. The books I read were always either old books (which made girls seem weak and stupid and good for nothing unless they were pretty) or new books (where women were tough and cruel and good for nothing unless they were strong AND pretty). Looking back, this was really damaging and I wish I’d felt confident enough to talk to my mum and other women in our church about it, because then it wouldn’t have hurt me as much as it did. It’s only been in more recent years that I’ve been able to enter into conversations with those people about what feminity is and isn’t and I still struggle with not liking either radical feminism or extreme conservative “anti-feminism”.

I do see Eowyn, like Khylie said, as the product of failed masculinity. I also see her as being a representation of women throughout history who God has called to act because the men who should have done the work were unwilling or unable to do so. Such as Deborah and Jael, Rahab, Esther, Ruth, Mary, Joan of Arc, and countless female missionaries throughout time. God often raises women up to be leaders and warriors (I’ll be controversial and say I don’t believe that women were originally made for these roles) in circumstances where all the men were unwilling to obey God and I feel like Eowyn was somewhat a representation of these women. She was damaged and broken and longing for her own glory, but she was used to fill a need that the men were too terrified to fulfill (going up against the Witch King). Anyway, seeing her come to terms with her womanhood and feminity was really good for me and she remains one of my all time favourite characters.

Whew… This is really long. My apologies for that. It seems I just have a lot to say.