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Brian Stansell replied to the topic Friendly debates here! in the forum Fantasy Writers 4 years, 3 months ago
Hi Peter! (@crazywriter),
I do wholeheartedly agree that the Hebrews 11 cast are in the Heavenly country,
You did zero in on it by your statement:
i think the emphasis is not on their faith, but who their faith is in.But there is something special about how they came to be there. Note the following:
These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of [them], and embraced [them], and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. [Hebrews 11:13-15 KJV]
They did, in fact, return, because of an event that changed the course of history.
Scripture says:
“There is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to people by which we must be saved.” [Acts 4:12 CSB]
It established that Jesus’s (Yeshua’s) once and for all sacrifice and rebirth is essential.
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. [John 3:3 KJV]
Faith in Jesus Christ alone and acceptance of His payment for our sins on the cross is the ONLY way to salvation and Heaven. The Bible is clear on this point.
But there is an OT mystery here that had its fulfillment happen when Christ went to the Cross, died, and was resurrected–What needed to happen particularly for those who believed in the promised Messiah and died before He was revealed to the world (Hebrews 11).You are correct:
i think the emphasis is not on their faith, but who their faith is in.…but it is even more than this.
Here are some points of Messianic prophesy and fulfillment many forget about:
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. [Psalm 16:10 KJV]
In Acts 2:25-27, St. Peter makes reference to this very passage as being a Messianic prophesy that indicated Christ.
The counting of the Hebrews 11 group, still could not enter Heaven without a connection through Messiah, they had to accept Him personally.
Here are some of the OT prophecies:
Thy dead [men] shall live, [together with] my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew [is as] the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. [Isaiah 26:19 KJV]
Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. And ye shall know that I [am] the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken [it], and performed [it], saith the LORD. [Ezekiel 37:12-14 KJV]
I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes. [Hosea 13:14 KJV]
Look at what happened as recorded in the book of Matthew:
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. [Matthew 27:52-53 KJV]Jesus told his followers this would happen:
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. [John 5:25-29 KJV]
St. Peter also references this when he mentions Jesus preaching to the “spirits in prison”:
For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, in which he also went and made proclamation to the spirits in prison who in the past were disobedient, when God patiently waited in the days of Noah while the ark was being prepared. In it a few – that is, eight people – were saved through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you (not as the removal of dirt from the body, but the pledge of a good conscience toward God) through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him. [1 Peter 3:18-22 CSB]The point is, God went to great lengths, even carrying sins (past, present, and future) into death and Hell to unload them, and declared Himself to be the Messiah those people who had a measure of faith that hoped for and trusted would one day come to redeem them. Those who had died, trusting in the hope of a Messiah, accepted Him after their deaths and were raised from the dead to ascend with Him into Heaven. Christ was and is essential. There is no access to Heaven except through Christ. The list of characters given in Hebrews 11, is not an exhaustive one. I also believe many other “believers” whose earthly existence pre-dated Christ’s entrance, were also in that group of “spirits in prison” who resurrected to follow Christ in Matthew’s account.
Here’s another question I have for you. Is God sincere, in the following statements?:
Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish. [Matthew 18:14 KJV]
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. [2 Peter 3:9 KJV]
Does His foreknowledge and decision to create human vessels that would ultimately refuse Him, signify that He is not truly grieved over the plight of the wicked? Does He truly love the world, or only those He predestined?
This question goes to the material point raised that lurks behind putting a “versus” between the two word: predestination (versus) free will
It is essentially asking the question, is God sincere, and is He just?
If mankind has not been given a free will choice, because of God’s foreknowledge and predestination, is mankind merely a construct so that God may lavish His love on one set and unleash His wrath on the other, through no culpability of our own?
However, if we say that Christ provided us with salvation, but if we refuse, we aren’t saved, then we say his work on the cross wasn’t enough to draw that sinner.I am not sure I can get on board with that, because it assumes that Grace is only of value if everyone embraces it. If I had a billion dollars in the bank, but could not spend it all myself in one lifetime, am I to understand that the value of the billion dollars was never truly what its implicit worth was, simply because I could not actuate it in its entirety? I think the worth of something is not depreciated, simply because others fail to recognize it.
As for the “unpardonable sin,” here’s what the Scripture says:
Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy [against] the [Holy] Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come. [Matthew 12:31-32 KJV]
Does committing this sin, nullify the value of Christ’s sacrifice on the cross for all of the others who don’t commit it?
How can a person who has no sense of or interaction with the Holy Ghost [Spirit], speak against Him? To whom is this charge addressed? What good does it do to warn those who are unreceptive to belief and faith?
When St. John writes the following:
If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that. All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death. [1 John 5:16-17 NIV]
…what do you believe qualifies as “the sin that leads to death” and “the sin(s) that does not lead to death”?
What is the distinction between them?
I do believe in pre-destination, but I also believe in Hell because Jesus spoke about it, and I believe God’s coming wrath on the unsaved is completely justified, but not merely because they were not pre-selected.
The Great White Throne judgment (Rev. 20:11-15) will be for all of those who chose to ignore the measure of faith they were given in life to respond to, and chose to be judged instead by their works according to the Law rather than faith through Christ’s sole and successful fulfillment of it.We cannot see what God does in the hearts of those we assume have never heard the gospel. I believe it sincerely grieves God that some choose to forfeit their opportunity to experience God’s grace, but I do believe the invitation is extended to all.












