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@denali-christianson

How long have you been writing Denali?

then I would mention that the supernatural isn’t inherently bad

This is your reoccurring argument throughout your comment, so let me drill down on it. As you said, miracles, exist, the spiritual realm is all around us (as I’ve already said, the spiritual realm is realer than the natural realm), angels and demons are real, and you’re right, obviously some of these things are not bad, God and angels are not bad. However, that does not mean we should write or read about them. The bible teaches against messing with the supernatural realm, even if it is “the good side (aka, God and angels and heaven).” So yes, supernatural isn’t inherently bad, that’s not my point, my point is that we should’t be messing with it, and thus we also shouldn’t be having are characters mess with it. I have one possible caveat with this: I’m assuming that if you read a book where the character was given powers by the God of the universe (like in the bible) then you would be okay with it. I think I could be convinced that specific scenario is okay, but anything (and I mean anything) else is to dangerous. Personally, I’m not even going to write a book where the Creator God gives powers to people, I just don’t feel comfortable messing with the supernatural even to that level. And I’ll say this again, I’m not saying that supernatural is bad or evil, I’m saying we shouldn’t mess with it.

So I’m a little confused, according to your definition of magic (which is the right, and biblical definition), you seem to agree that messing with magic/supernatural is sinful and bad, which is good. But then it seems that you are also okay with it in some scenarios, could you clarify this a little for me?

This practice is selfish (not to mention perverted), and it brings glory to oneself, not God.

So, I had to comment on this, because I’m not exactly sure what you were inferring, but it seemed that you were saying that if you use magic for God and his glory than it would be okay in a fantasy world, or maybe even in our world. Is that what you were saying? Because even if magic did bring glory to God in a world, I still think the bible teaches against using it, or in our case, writing about it.

Yes, angels are part of the supernatural, and so I think the bible teaches against trying to connect with them in real life, researching them in real life (however people do that, but they do), or writing about them. The bible tells us all we need to know about angels and demons, we should not be messing with that realm. Stick to the natural.

Further, I agree that powerful abilities such as harnessing energy are not magic. They are laws of nature in the world in question. For example, gravity is a natural law of this world. Do we ever call it magic? No. At least I hope not…

Couldn’t have said it better myself. 🙂 This is how I want my fantasy, and frankly, I don’t understand why people think it improves books to add magic and supernatural stuff, it just makes books more cheesy in my opinion.

I would mention here that the supernatural isn’t something to be afraid of or shy away from writing about. Whether we like it or not, we are living in a spiritual battle.

As I said, just because it is real and all around us, doesn’t mean we should be messing with it. And when people say they are going to write a book that uses the supernatural realm in it, that usually means they are going to have a character connect with it somehow, which is blatantly against what the bible teaches (Chuck Black does that in his books for instance).

However, I would disagree with his point that you shouldn’t dictate definitions to people. I’m a team policy debater. No one can have a debate without definitions, as no one will know what anyone else means. I think that definitions are to be shared and debated.

Agreed, and this is especially true when the bible and God is the one saying what magic is and defining it, it doesn’t matter what we or the world recall it.

I got a little confused with your point that we shouldn’t use magic as it will be confused with the supernatural. Isn’t this a little contradictory to your definition?

Sorry, what I meant was if you were to use magic in the way Taylor and the others are saying you can (non-supernatural), then people will get confused on whether or not it is supernatural due to the fact that the word magic still most commonly means supernatural, even by the world’s definitions. This point is kinda moot, because God and the bible define it, so it doesn’t matter if the world tries to change it. Probably shouldn’t have brought it up, it is just confusing the matter. xD

So, here’s the thing: I don’t think that creating other religions is bad, as that has happened in this world. When we create other religions, show how hopeless they are, and then contrast that with the Truth, it makes the darkness seem all the darker and light seem all the brighter.

I’m torn. If you create religions in a fantasy world in the way you are describing, then you will also have to create a a made up religion that is Christianity to call those other religions false, and that is dangerous in itself. It just turns to chaos when you bring religions into fantasy. This is the way I will do it when I write my fantasy series: I will have a Creator, who is God (such as Eru Illvatar in Tolkien’s works), and the majority of the people will treat him as who he is, the Creator God. If I have any other “religions,” they will be given a cult like status, and not be utilized by the protagonists (same as having atheism in my book). There will be no made up worship service to simulate Church for the Creator in the fantasy world, I just don’t think that is okay to do.

Not writing about it doesn’t make it any less real, and it by doing so we are basically ignoring the problem, Satan, and the solution, God.

I’m confused. You seem to have agree that magic/harnessing the supernatural is sinful and “perverse” as you put it, correct? So by this comment do you mean writing the sin in the same way you would write murder is okay? If so, that is what Archer was saying, and I think I agree, you just have to be extremely careful. But to be clear, that is not the way authors like Sanderson, Rothfuss, Riordan, and Rowling use it, those authors are messing with gods, supernatural realms, spells, etc…

Disclaimer: I get very passionate about these things! If anything I just wrote came across as rude or offensive, I apologize. I’m not trying to force my opinion on anyone!

Don’t worry about it, I loved reading your thoughts. 🙂

I believe that the context of the stories we make matter. Yes, we are Christians who are writers.

@allertingthbs

This is the essence of your point I believe, and I think I’m agreeing with Denali when I say that though context does matter, the bible and God override what we can do with context. If I use magic or supernatural abilities or realms in a book, that is clearly against what the bible teaches, no matter what context we invent.

@taylorclogston

Come on man, the audience and what they think don’t matter, God is our ultimate audience, and what He thinks is what matters. The bible tells us what magic and witchcraft are, and so we know exactly what he thinks of those things, no matter how people try to change them. Besides, those fireballs in those games are considered supernatural, they are considered magic. People don’t consider those abilities in games like Skyrim or Zelda to be part of the natural world, they consider them supernatural, or at least the people who know what magic means do, which is most people. Also, the people raised to believe that’s what magic means, were raised by people who follow the rules and definitions of the bible, so I’m not sure what your point was on that.

Only a subset of Christians (and maybe Muslims?) among the demographic of fantasy readers associate the word “magic” with problematic spirituality

Emphasis on “problematic spirituality,” in other words, they don’t see a problem with it, but they do know it’s supernatural. Many of those people (and by many, I mean most, because most people do know or could easily be shown that magic means supernatural), think that dealing with the supernatural and magic is just fine, but that doesn’t mean that don’t connect it with witchcraft, supernatural, and sub-natural realms, in fact, almost everyone does, even those video game players.

However, I will point out that from what I’ve seen, the vast majority of the fantasy audience definitely has an impression of magic something along the lines of sorcery.

What Denali says here is really my point, all these people know that it is sorcery, witchcraft, supernatural, but they’re just okay with it, they don’t know the bible teaches against, or if they do, they don’t care.