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@selah-chelyah: “I, personally, am neither Calvinist nor Armenian. No, I am not riding the fence!  That is something I would not do, ask anyone I know!     I believe that Scripture is clear that both views are true. ” Darn! *frowns* well now it just looks like I’m copying you XD Well that part was easy because I full heartedly agree! (although, I will tell you, it was a REALLY hard and REALLY painful conclusion to come too! *shivers as he thinks back* not a fun experience)

“Have you looked at those verses 1)In the context of the chapter/book, and 2)in the original Greek or Hebrew meanings?” Now I know this sounds lame and unintellectual but no, I have not : (. I kinda only do that when there are only one or two verses saying the same thing but, because of their sheer quantity, I’m pretty sure ‘if’ is what these verses mean (and yes, I’m also convinced they are talking, in most cases, of real and genuine belivers.) However I would like to be enlightend and proved wrong! Maybe I need to do a big search and find them all… anyway you said

“I would say the short answer to your question is that those verses are describing the already redeemed… and comparing them to the unredeemed. It is describing to you what the saved already do hold fast until the end, remain firm til the end, endure to the end ”

Ok, sorry, I’m confused… where did you get the whole comparison thing from? Let me look at this again “by which also you are saved, if you hold fast [a]the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.” oh, ok I think I get what your saying (tell me if this is right): You are saved, if you hold fast and thus you arnt saved if you dont. So your arguing that the people who fall away aren’t, in fact, saved. Is that right? Well *brings out the big guns* heres what I got for that!

“For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, [d]since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. ” Hebrews 6: 4-6 NASB

“But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the [h]rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.” Romans 11: 17-23 NASB

(granted this poses some questions as hebrews says, once you fall away you cant come back and romans says you can but I think we can worry about that latter : D)

“For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. 22 [h]It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A dog returns to its own vomit,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.””2 Peter 2: 20-22 NASB

“Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart [c]that falls away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called “Today,” so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,” Hebrews 3:12-14 NASB

Now, I am aware of 1 John 2:19 (and honestly that seem to clearly contradict these verses. I dont know how to answer this I’ll just be honest) but I think these 4 verses are quite clear, those doing the falling away are real, genuinely saved, christians. So ya, thats what I got!