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And I did it again… So this will feel like stale crackers…

I will start out by sending you Romans six and seven… because you took both of those Romans passages out of context. Romans eight still applies here, but it’s not crucial to my point. This chunk of Romans says two things that I believe are very important here (though I’m sure it says more than that). A. There is still a law we are to follow, B. We cannot follow it perfectly which would result in our death but Christ took that off of us so we can strive for it without worrying about it crushing us.

The first part of this scripture asks if we should sin that grace may abound. And the answer is no. And then it goes on to talk about how He freed us from the judgement of the law. This is speaking of justification. The law will not justify us, we cannot work for our salvation, we would be seen as crap when standing next to the law. But Christ died, and covered us in his sin (as we have faith in him because he called us), that we might live under grace. We are still expected to follow the law, because we are not to sin that grace may abound. But we don’t have the judgment of the law hovering over us as we try to fulfill it for justification. We can’t. Christ did.

“What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self[a] was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For one who has died has been set free[b] from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. 13 Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. 14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

Slaves to Righteousness
15 What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves,[c] you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.

20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Released from the Law
7 Or do you not know, brothers[d]—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives?2 For a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he lives, but if her husband dies she is released from the law of marriage.[e]3 Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress.

4 Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. 5 For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.[f]

The Law and Sin
7 What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.”8 But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead. 9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. 10 The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me. 11 For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12 So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

13 Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. 15 For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. 17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.”

And as for the Galatians passage I say the same thing. It has the same context as that of the Romans one and I think you should read the chapters surrounding.

Now… we do know that some of the old law did pass away… but that was the law which was fulfilled in Christ’s death and resurrection. Nothing happened that contradicted the OT, only fulfilling part of it. The Mosaic covenant can be also referred to as The Mosaic Administration of The One Covenant of Grace. All throughout scripture, since the beginning of the fall, there has been a covenant of grace. That covenant never changed. But it did have different administrations. And those administrations were fulfilled in Christ coming, dying and rising.

Now… in all of the covenants God made with man, before Christ came, we see types and shadows. These were the ceremonial laws, the cleanliness laws (which were ceremonial), and the laws the applied the Israel as a Theocracy (which in and of itself is a type and shadow). All of these things were administrations of the covenant of grace. They were not the final, but pointing to.

The moral law is not a part of the covenant of grace, thus we cannot say that they were erased in the fulfilling of the other types and shadows, particularly the Mosaic administration that lasted until Christ’s fulfilling.

Morality was formed in the garden when God gave a standard. It dates back before the covenant of grace. It was formed in the covenant of works. Man (in Adam) failed to uphold the covenant of works, and was thus put into a covenant of grace.

Yes… man is still expected to do good things, and uphold the law. But he is no longer bound to it by justification, and never was. It never disappeared… but Christ fulfilled its judgement for those who put their faith in him, thus fulfilling also the types and shadows which pointed to him fulfilling that part of the law.

Thus I conclude here that Jesus never changed morality. We are still to follow the law, but are not bound to it for justification which would result in our going to hell.

 

Now! I say that NT doesn’t trump OT, and that’s because it doesn’t need to. The OT turns into the NT without a fight and without contradiction. If we find a contradiction we can know that it is not. Jesus will not contradict anything he said in the OT (remembering that all the epistles are Jesus words). The OT is fulfilled by what it prophesied. The law was never told would go away. But it no longer enslaves us. We are free to follow it, under the mercy of Christ.

So we live in a different context… but it’s one that frees us from the slavery of the law, which would condemn us to Hell.

Also… If you get to say that the sword thing doesn’t apply to us because it’s in the OT I get to say that about Jesus sermon on the mount. It’s in the OT. 😉 Yeah… that doesn’t work.

And yes… he does call us to be like him… but we are not here for the same purpose. In fact I found a self defense passage where Jesus seems to be promoting self defense: “But no one can enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man. Then indeed he may plunder his house.” Mark 3:27 

Now this passage is a bit obscure because of its context. And you might say that its context makes it not mean this. But he is using justified self defense to show a truth. If you’re gonna try to plunder a man’s house, you’re gonna have to tied him up (this implies that he’s not gonna let you, nor does he have to. And plundering is so serious, because you rely in it. May I add that if you die, your family who relies on you won’t have the strong man to protect their house. We have a certain duty to our family and loved ones, especially those that rely on us for support. Now… these words that Jesus said line up perfectly with so much of the prior OT examples.

We see over and over again that a man is justified in fighting for himself and for others. When the men go to get water for David, they do so knowing they will fight. They don’t wait until they are attacked, they attack and fight to the water. At the point they are on their way there, they are fighting to keep themselves alive… but also fighting because if they die they are leaving their king vulnerable. And so I think we are permitted to fight so as not to leave our family vulnerable.

When you mention turning the other cheek, that would be in contradiction to much of scripture, unless we read it as not having revenge, which really makes more sense, in both the language and consistency.

In Philippians: “Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others. In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus” (Philippians 2: 3-5) That is not only referring to our relationships with one another (brothers and sisters), but it’s also referring to selfish ambitions or vain conceit. Self defense is neither of those, and if a person is attacking us we can assume by their fruit, that they are not a brother or sister. You may argue that this never says brother or sister, but it specifically tells us “In your relationships with one another…” and the letter is sent to believers (it says to saints at the beginning of the book). We are to treat fellow saints differently than unsaved. And if a fellow saint is trying to kill us, our family, or plunder our house, we can assume that they are not a fellow saint, by their works. That doesn’t mean that we have to kill them, but if it does come to that, I don’t think it’s prohibited.

And again in Ephesians “Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma.” This is in the context of how we act in accordance with fellow saints, not acting as the gentiles, in the futility of their minds. Besides, the sins he lists off are sins that were prohibited from the beginning. And remember that earlier on in Ephesians is says: “Be angry and do not sin;” There is a place for righteous anger.  Anger is a form of resistance, whether physical or not.

And btw… when you say this “Plus, there are things that are wrong that are not prohibited in the bible (examples: polygamy, and slavery) so just cuz I can’t find a verse prohibiting it doesn’t mean its not wrong.” Polygamy is prohibited. We see this in the seventh commandment, we see this in Genesis, we see that a man is to leave his father and mother and cleave unto his wife, we see the bad effects of polygamy everywhere. Yes it is VERY prohibited… but not punished in the same way as other sins.

And slavery is not wrong, in the right context. We see slavery as right in the OT. Kidnapping is wrong. But in the case of indentured servitude it’s right. If someone had to pay off a debt they went into righteous servitude. That’s not man stealing. And a bond servant which is not wrong.

 

There… that is my reply! 🙂 And yes… I am open minded, but have a very strong resolve for this case. So if you show me wrong, I’ll be moved, but I already have thought about this for quite a while, and even here have been finding more reason to hold to my convictions.