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@taylorclogston

Thank you for your prompt response! I thoroughly enjoyed reading your thoughtful response and have tried to explain my thoughts below clearly.

Absolutely yes, I think there is a lot of resentment by women (in general) about the Biblical responsibility of wives to submit. As a woman, I’ve done my best to learn what I could about the context, audience, purpose of Paul in saying this in his letter/s, and so I’ve reached the said conclusion above. 🙂 Another item to note is that it’s never good to take Bible verses or even passages out of context. Some readers reading the part about women needing to keep silence in the church at all times fail to recall the multiple women who were commendably named in NT letters (see Priscilla, who is said to have taught Apollos along with Aquinas in Acts 18:24-26) as well as OT female “leaders” such as Deborah, Esther, Miriam (who was called a prophetess), and there were other prophetesses as well who had men listening to their advice. Additionally, word study would also show that the word “silent” used by Paul does not mean or imply “complete silence.” 1 Cor 11:5 also recognizes women who publicly prayed and prophesied and did not condemn this practice. Overall, I think perhaps there is a general ignorance creating this resentment, which is possible to change with education of the facts as well as a willingness to change one’s perception on the implications of the word submit.

I find an issue with your usage of the term “twist” in reference to Christian “counterculture.” People today fail to define or use words as they mean, and dictionaries often have to compensate because English is a living language and so must change according to the general society (whether in a positive/educated way, or a negative/ignorant way). I think I tried to convey that equality can be defined differently depending on what one is using the term for. Equality of importance in society vs. equality of sameness in society can be vastly different. Another to note is that society’s perceptions and values on certain roles can be vastly different from God’s/Biblical values on certain roles.

Example: leftists tend to emphasize the term “equality” when they’re actually emphasizing “equality of outcome” while conservatives tend to use the term “equality” when referring to “equality of opportunity.” Our society can realistically achieve opportunity equality, but to think that everyone can absolutely perform the same as everyone else (equality of outcome) in every area would be an utopian delusion. Each human being is of equal value in God’s eyes (and should be in ours), yet each human being is guaranteed to not possess (or given by our Creator) the same gifts (spiritually, psychically, mentally, etc.). I suppose one can call this “unequal” because there is difference/uniqueness in each human being. Would you think this would actually be a twisted usage of the term equality?

Our society is contradictory in that 1) people expect others to accept them “the way they are” and yet 2) society also expect everyone to be “equal” in their abilities and performance. Of the latter, I’d extend to observe that if one is not “equal” to their expectations, then either the person need to change to conform to what the society consider is good or the society need to change because people are (mostly or even solely) products of their environments and it follows that humans are not equal because our current society/environment is dragging them down. What do you think?

Would it not be considered inequality if we expect men to be drafted but women to not be? And if you think that it would not be “right” to require including women in the draft, why all our society’s current fuss about equal roles/responsibilities between men and women? Because the moment we force equal roles/responsibilities/abilities, then all the laws about hiring “the same amount” of men and women come in, and then incompetence flood our work place because we need to keep up a fascade of “equality” in our society (and if one doesn’t, then one will be under scrutiny and suspect of being a “sexist” or promoter of “inequality” between the sexes.)

Would you say that our society’s definition of and views concerning equality is twisted? And so when Christians use the terms, there is much confusion/lack of mutual understanding due to ambiguity of definition?

I see that you use the terms “right” and “privilege.” Back to first principles – who do you consider to be the originator of “rights” and “privileges”? Unfortunately, my mind kind of wants to “shut down” when I hear “equality” and “rights” and “entitlements” any more. I’ve tried to explain to you my views and definition of equality and why I think so. With the terms “rights” and “privileged” I think I’ll leave that for my next post… I’d love to see what you think about this though. (Ahem, think “the human right to healthcare” please. :P)

I see that you’ve pointed out what churches are doing (perhaps vs. what they should be doing?) about women as missionaries instead of leaders of the entire congregation. I don’t recall the Bible forbidding women to be leaders in general. The part in Ephesians about women needing to keep silent I consider a cultural command because women were not educated back then in Ephesus, and Paul did not forbid women to be educated – he only told them to be quiet and listen to their teachers, which is what students should do. Deborah was a prophetess who “was leading Israel at the time” – judicially and in battle. Esther was chosen to lead her people out of the death Haman desired. And when women were prophetesses, they were (or if not, were obviously supposed to be) respected by the king and the people. There were also “wise” women mentioned in the Bible, and Proverbs – the book of Wisdom – commanded sons to heed their mother’s instructions (if they were against women teaching, which I would consider a form of leadership, Solomon could have easily skipped any mention of mother). So overall, from what I see, churches today should recognize and commend wisdom and competent leadership in men and women alike. If a female (or male) leader does not adhere to biblical standards as the foundation, then they should be considered and disregarded by the congregation a “false teacher.” There were plenty of those back then as well as today. And to address your last point, I think (and you’d agree?) just thinking “oh, we have a woman leader, so we must have a male equivalent with her just in case” is nonsense because all teachers/leaders should consult with one another about their decisions and lessons as well as pray for divine wisdom and guidance. I can’t find any biblical grounds for thinking that God discriminate giving out wisdom and guidance and leadership based on sex. What do you think?

While I agree with your point that society and Christian conservatives alike want to give women freedom to choose between homemaking and “going out” to work, I have to disagree with your view that our society is not pushing women to be more masculine (despite their personal preferences or wants – this part in parentheses, by the way, is usually not mentioned). I’m told multiple times as a woman that I should prioritize myself and my career over anything else. It’s so terrible to have to live under such pressure for conformity. I’m all for telling women that they can make a difference for a “better tomorrow,” but I differ with most other women because I emphasize that women can do this NO matter what they choose to do – a mother or a general – like “you don’t need to “get out there” in order for someone else to notice you and pat you on the back or give you raises or medals in order to feel what you do is important BECAUSE IT ALREADY IS” (as long as you’re doing a good job at it – I’d say something else to those who act or even believe that they are but are actually not :P). Instead, our society clearly tend to view being a general as more prestigious compared to “oh, I’m only a homemaker…” (By the way, I’d say the same to men who wishes or are assuming non-traditional roles.) This is so wrong and depreciation of women, I don’t understand why more women aren’t getting after this mentality. I identify this as part of feminists’ hypocrisy – they’re willing to fight teeth and nail for what they call “a woman’s right to be control of her own body” rather than fighting for women’s freedom to choose doing something they value (without social constructs about how one career is “better than” other because it pays more or whatnot, or even fighting for the unborn (many of whom would be women if they were actually allowed to live long enough).

I’m not sure if you’re aware of the recent “guidelines” from the American Psychological Association, which basically condemned what they called “traditional masculinity.” If you’re not, I’d recommend reading this:

Therefore, I’m really concerned when our society have very highly educated people possessing the conviction that “masculinity” is a negative trait in men (for one, they don’t even seem to understand what “masculinity” is since they include “anti-feminism” and “violence” as part of the definition). And we’re dealing with the area of psychology here, which is very fundamental. Orwell was absolutely right in saying “In a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” And he didn’t say “telling your version of truth.”

I sympathize with your emotional response/inability to completely reconcile to the concept of men-love vs. women-submit. I’ve learned to value the human ability to use thinking in order to change my emotional response. For example, my personality (INTJ) is very focused on justice. I can be so focused on it that I fail to have a more “human/emotional” response to things, and in conclusion be so severe that I’m viewed as the cold, calculating, villainous sort. (And yes, there is a reason why so many villains tend to be INTJ 😛 I bet this makes you feel so much better to be discussing with me, right? xD) But my faith and Christian teachings have taught me to value mercy as much as justice, because this is the way of Christ. And since I call myself a Christ-follower, I need to stop only doing lip-service and actually start trying to change my thinking. It worked. I’ve learned to be more balanced now. But it was and still is really hard because I need to really focus on being more Christ-like and less myself as I’m naturally is. While I see other people around me that I talk to not struggling with this. They struggle with other things – like seeing situations and ideas in a logical perspective. (An equivalent to what makes your spirit “vomit in disgust” about the very probable existence of corrupt leadership of husbands, mine does the same every time I think about the mass murder of the unborn… my initial reactions something like – we need to declare it unlawful to murder 😛 and then find and sentence all those physicians and women who participated in this heinous crime. Yet I know that I should forgive others as God have forgiven me. And mercy is so much more difficult and glorious when it is valued alongside justice.) So overall, I guess I’m trying to suggest to you that while it’s hard, it IS possible, and probably beneficial for you to evaluate and adjust your perception (some call it worldview) to the Biblical standard which all of us Christians are commanded to and so are obligated to submit to. One of the pastors I regularly listened to (Swindol) liked to quote, and I think it is relevant in our case of trying to think about our society and our roles in this current world: “Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world [and I’d add also to not conform to what I initially wish to think or say], but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is – his good, pleasing, and perfect will.” (Romans 12:2, NIV 1984).

One other note I wanted to add is that our entire government is made up of “flawed, sinful” humans, and even when God appointed kings for Israel, they were far from perfect as God is (thinking Saul, David, Solomon). Yet, Biblical hierarchy and commands are given to us to be submitted/obeyed. Perhaps we also need to remember that our first obedience is to God and so we are not obligated to do anything against his standards of morality (no matter it’s the government or men/husbands who commanded us to do so).

I was referring to combat roles. Completely agree with you about not forbidding women to serve at all. Yes, either they are ignorant of the details of such legislation, or they’re being corrupt and trying to add to the breakdown of the family. Or both. I don’t think any reasonable citizen would want to be placed in a situation of being drafted, but if and when it happens – maybe those people think that adding women to the front lines as combatants are supposed to help? I don’t get it. 😛 Nurses, perhaps… I have to give to those women that they’d need to be super brave to serve so far out.

Would you completely cancel out the probability of a group of people who possess an agenda, though? After all, it took organization for Hitler to mass murder Jews. I think this is interesting to think about… personally I’m of the persuasion that 1) either they are part of an organized group who really believe that Christians are the poison of the earth, or 2) they’re not part of the group who have a firm, Illuminati-like agenda/organization but still contributes to such a cause by believing and acting on the belief that Christian standards are “old-fashioned” and no longer deserving conservation because our society have progressively broke free of such dogmas or bigotry – depending on how extreme they view conservative Christians. What do you think of my interpretation of their motives?

Again, I have no problem when our society defines right and wrong in a way that’s congruent to biblical standards, but when we change the concept of morality to an ever-evolving ethics concept… Ugh – it makes me cringe to think of bringing up abortion as an example again. I already pointed out the difference between what IS right vs. what people may think is right, but I’ll emphasize it again: Biblical morality completely forbids murder no matter the society’s views on it, but social ethics can be changed – if most people think murdering is okay does not make it actually okay though, right?

Thank you for clarifying your point. I think perhaps conservatives and/or Christians are more vocal about such films with such obvious or more subtle leftist messages because they feel threatened in our society, government, and Hollywood. And I think for good reason. I’m not saying that every critique they bring up is correct (some of them obviously read too much into things… like the purple haired lady general is a lesbian? :P), but I think it’s a reflection of what they’ve been experiencing in a lot of other arenas. For myself, I try to identify the leftist messages when I find them, I try to give the creators the benefit of the doubt of doing it on purpose or not and why they’d include those messages, and finally I try to decide whether or not it was actually worth it to voluntarily expose myself to such messages I disagree with. For TLJ, my probability of re-watching it would depend heavily on how they end this trilogy. If the final one turns out to be more disappointing than TJL, then I may forsake this trilogy…. But if I found some redeeming elements (as I did in TLJ), I’ll probably consider this sequel trilogy as more legit.

Please include me in your nerd group. 😀 I appreciate you pointing your concern about this double standards with shallow female MCs (Main Character) vs. shallow male MCs. I totally agree with your concern. Now I’m wondering about myself :P. However, at this moment I can’t think of a Mary Sue, male equivalent to evaluate my thoughts. Do you have any examples from popular film that you found have included a male MC who, character-wise, is similar to Rey?

Do you think that perhaps the SW audience expected Rey to be more satisfying as a character, and so upon their disappointment, became more vocal about Rey as a failed character (her gender aside)? I, for one, found her much more disappointing compared to Wonder Woman or Katniss. 😛

Oh! Wonderful to know that you use an anonymous search engine; I use DuckDuckGo. 🙂 I think I’ve addressed your final two paragraphs above already above – where I ranted on and on about women who were leaders in the Bible and my thoughts on this. Hopefully it was logical but please let me know if I was in reality confusing. And I apologize when I fell into a “preaching” mode. 😛 I feel that I need to seriously limit my word count right now (hmm… it’s only 2500+ words). I commend you for your patience in bearing with my rambling thoughts. And thank you so much for your willingness to participate in this discussion with me! I appreciate this opportunity to learn what your perspectives are and why as well as finding out some of our similar struggles with the reconciliation of what we know we should think/do vs. what we actually or wish to think/do. 🙂 Once again, I shall conclude by expressing my welcome for any comments/thoughts/questions you have on what I’ve written!