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@hope-ann

You wrote: “Now I’m wondering how both the systems might be combined. Bringing out the beauty of nature but, because of a magic system/how the world runs, being able to harness that beauty and powers in ways that could be considered technology. Or even just nature. A city built next to a volcano where they channel lava to produce heat or a warm glow along the gutters of the streets. Or particular metals or plants being used to delve huge caverns under oceans or rivers.”

In regards to this first paragraph, I’d like to say that I do agree. If I can paraphrase/interpret what Taylor made mention of in his reply, invention is not the villain of Tolkien’s fantasy. So I agree with you – I think there is a way that we can create ‘technology’ in our fantasy worlds through creative applications of our magic systems. Which was, I suppose, the entire purpose of this topic. Ugh. And I’ve just gone on a big, looping, rabbit-trail that is dumping us right at the same place that we started…

I do have some ideas about how to go about it; but I’ve written myself out of time this evening. 🙁

Then you wrote: “Really… even Tolkien’s standard was a bit arbitrary because it was a past he romanticized. But if the people from that period read fantasy they would likely romanticize a time even further past. Or they’d mark out inconsistencies of what matched their time frame and what was even further past. Because medieval life was hardly static either. It just didn’t have the ’70 years from flying to landing on the moon’ sort of leaps.”

I have to completely disagree with this paragraph. From what I have read of Tolkien, he was not at all romanticizing a specific time period. His purpose in actively escaping from technology in his fantasy was to get back to the heart of things. Hence, in the example, we have instead of electric lamp-posts… lightning. And the focus is not so much on the lack of lamp-posts, but on the presence, power, simplicity, and beauty of lightning.

So it is, from that point of view, more of an escape to the heart of things, rather than escape from the ever-encroaching march of technology. Though there are definitely elements of both, for sure.

I would never call fantasy the romanticization of any age in particular. Tolkien’s world is not, to my mind, medieval. It is ageless, if anything. I can’t put it neatly into any particular historical locale because he successfully created an alternate world which is internally consistent to itself, not to earth’s history. It just so happens that the closest analog in our minds is medieval. So then, rather than getting back to any specific time in earth history, Tolkien created his own time, one that exists independent of our history, one that was created intentionally to allow him to introduce specific themes and emphases.

Not only that, but it doesn’t take into account the worldview that Tolkien made evident throughout his works. Drawing from the whole of the history of Middle-Earth, I think his conception of history was one of cyclical devolution, rather than progression. From the age of ‘gods’ in the First Age to the coming of the Age of Men (aka the Fourth Age), we see a progression in the history of Middle-earth that leads me to believe that Tolkien had a very counter-cultural view of history. I find it to be quite thought-provoking and profound.

Our conception of history has been (unduly, I think) influenced by 19th century optimism – the idea that all things are progressively getting better and better. This is (in my opinion), a by-product of anti-Christian evolutionary theory that has been applied to all of culture. And I say anti-Christian because I believe from Scripture that this time, this final age of history, gets worse until Christ returns (although, to be fair, there is some debate on this point; some do say that things will get better and better; I disagree).

I think you could safely say that in Tolkien’s world, there is an inverse connection between the ‘progress’ of raw, unnatural technology and the regress of culture and goodness. It is a principle that I find holds true in our own world as well. All by itself, that is not the full picture, however. As always, there’s a bright spot of hope in all this. Technology/invention can be created and even used for good!

By the way, don’t get me wrong. I am no Luddite marching for the abolishment of technology. I’m relaying these very thoughts with one of the greatest technological marvels of the 21st century. And I’m very thankful for it. Honestly, I view technology mostly as a non-moral tool that can be used either for great good or great evil. However, given the unnatural bent of fallen man, technology will be used for evil with far greater frequency than it will be used for good; or, if originally good, it will be twisted to evil use; and therefore it contributes to the speed with which society devolves to greater and greater levels of depravity.

@taylorclogston

Thanks for providing a needed counter-point! I wasn’t balanced in my initial comment. So glad that you said something, because I left out an entire dimension of invention/technology that Tolkien does include quite prominently throughout his works: and that is, like you said, good inventions. Beautiful things. Works of art and usefulness that coincide with the master-song. Is it these things that bring balance to his view towards technology. It’s not that he’s against it totally, but he is against it when it destroys the natural order, or when it is misused and turned to evil purposes.

Also, you have a very fair point that electric lamp-posts in fantasy definitely do not put you outside the camp. That said, if we’re going to take more elements from that author… Tolkien didn’t exactly think talking animals belonged very well in his definition of fantasy, either. He called those beast-fables. So…

But, sadly, I have to agree with you that one man’s words, however good in and of themselves, should not be used to limit a sprawling genre to such a small scope. Fantasy has out-grown its father’s will; like most willful children, it has gone its own way. And we must accept that.

So… I propose to call Tolkien’s style of fantasy mythic or high fantasy, both of which have been thrown around on the forums by @daeus and I. Personally, I like mythic better. I mean, look at my signature. Haha!

@northerner Thank you! Yes. I heartily second your evaluation of the book. After just one read, I can already tell that it is perhaps the resource that I will turn to consistently to remind myself what and why I write.