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  • calidris replied to the topic Morally Ambiguous Characters in the forum Fantasy Writers 3 years, 6 months ago

    @irishcelticredflowercrown

    On example is an anime I watched recently vinland saga, it has a character who is considered to be the fan favourite because he’s morally grey. Sure he has an interesting character arc, but in my opinion, he’s just a straight up villain with a sad backstory, so I find the universal praise for this ‘awesome’ character somewhat disturbing.

    EXACTLY!   See, I think it’s good to show that side of humanity – I think a lot of people who turn to evil do have trauma or a lot of hurt in their past, and choosing to follow these desires give them a sense of control over their lives.  It’s interesting to think about how if circumstances had been slightly different, and if characters made different choices, the villain could have turned into a hero, and the hero turned into a villain.  It’s just important to remember that a person’s trauma or personality absolutely do not excuse the bad things they’ve done.

    I also think that part of the issue is that main characters tend to be really boring and unlikable.  I think in some cases, people do gravitate towards morally gray or even straight up villainous characters just because they’re dark, but I also think that these characters are just generally really interesting!  I think that there’s kind of this expectation sometimes that an MC has to be a good role model, and so sometimes authors don’t give them opportunities to really mess up and show an uglier side.  Again, it’s something that Haikyuu did so well – the main characters were incredibly flawed, but they were interesting, and you knew that they would grow from their mistakes instead of just ignoring them.  Also, I think when people idolize a character, they might be less likely to admit they’ve done something wrong because they’ve actually attached a part of their own identity to that character (You can see this in real life too with politics and celebrity culture.)

    Also btw is the anime any good?  I need something new to watch XD

    Absolutely! In general one of the biggest complaints about fiction nowadays is that the characters are spared from the consequences of their own actions. Imagine that😂

    It’s so strange because people are actively asking for better writing, and yet the publishers aren’t really listening…

    Can I just say that I want to give Kit like the biggest, best hug in the world?😪 That poor thing! And I think its great that you’re prepared to use his character to address a topic as complex as this. I can tell how dedicated you are to getting Kit’s character arc right, so I know you will do the topic justice 🙂

    That’s so encouraging to hear that from you!  It’s something I’ve really been trying to get right, and it’s something that I’ve committed into God’s hands.  I’ve just been asking Him to use Kit’s character to accomplish whatever it is that he wants, and I have faith that He’s going to continue to mold Spire into what He wants it to be 🙂

    And Kit would absolutely love that – his main love language is touch :’)  Also you just know he gives the best hugs XD

    Honestly, I could say the same for you and Lorcan – I’m so glad you’re tackling the subject of war and tyranny in your writing!  I feel like in Christian fantasy, there’s kind of this tendency to have the “good” side and the “bad” side, and they both always act accordingly.  Whatever violence the good side uses is justified, because they’re fighting pure evil.  I’m not saying that all stories with this format are bad (in fact, I think that they can be really great allegories, like the Chronicles of Narnia,) but imo governments in real life always hold some degree of corruption because they’re lead by sinful people.  Obviously some forms of government are way worse than others, but there is never a true “good” side when dealing with humans, and I’d love to see more Christian fiction tackle that!

    I respect that you have decided to stay away from topics that you feel you shouldn’t breach. I think there are far too many writers who think they can do a hard topic justice and end up failing. The topic of violence is quite a tricky one for Christians, it should definitely not be glorified. In my case, I feel compelled to focus on the horrors of war in my WIP. It didn’t start off that way, it was a gradual process, beginning after I watched some war-themes films and shows. The power of indoctrination and corruption became something I just couldn’t ignore, which then moved onto the consequences of these deeds. One thing I know for sure is that it is horrifically easy for people turn against one another. You don’t need a very complicated reason. Like in Northern Ireland, Catholics and Protestants turned against one another simply because of their different political and cultural identities. That particular ongoing conflict was actually an inspiration for the war in my series.

    You hit the nail on the head!  I think in my case, I used to glorify violence perpetrated by the protagonists in my earlier writing, and I think that’s probably a huge reason why I now avoid writing it.

    I will say, after writing my recent post, I’ve realized that there actually more potential instances of violence in my story than I remembered.  Right now, my protagonists are pretty peaceful, but an issue of self-defense might come up at some point.  For now, I know I’m sticking to non-lethal violence (at the bare minimum,) and I’ll have to pray about the rest 🙂

    By the way, have you seen 1917 by any chance?  I just watched it with my family (as of finishing up this response XD,) and I think you’d really like it!  I have to preface this by saying that there were some graphic scenes, a lot of swearing (including f-bombs and using the Lord’s name in vain) as well as an inappropriate joke I never actually picked up on (the movie is rated R.)  That being said, it’s a phenomenal movie, and a very powerful portrayal of the realities of war (my dad mentioned that they actually probably toned it down – which I agree with.)  It was brutal and heart-wrenching, but it was also (imo) tastefully done.  It’s not a movie I could recommend to everyone (because of the content issues,) but I know that you like darker/realistic portrayals of war, and I figured you might be interested!  I think it might be the most powerful movie I’ve ever seen.  It deeply affected me – not in a bad way, but certainly not in a warm-fuzzy way either.

    Lorcán has an us-or-them and it’s-for-the-greater-good sort of mindset, which was built up over a long period of time. He believes what he does will be beneficial in the long run, even so he detests his profession. Through his relationships with Mayra and other characters, the doubt he’s always had at the back of his mind slowly spills out. He wants ‘freedom’ and ‘peace’ but the problem with that is that he has always been taught that it’s ‘the other side’ that’s the issue, which means ‘the other side’ have to go. Bottom line is – lots of people have to die if you want to achieve ultimate peace and freedom. That’s how war starts and genocides occur. And its his ultimate realisation later on in the series that its all a lie, that he doesn’t hate and doesn’t want to hate ‘the other side’, he’s just being used for war and that genocide is the endgame, that causes him to just crack and decide he wants no part in it. He is going to achieve peace the righteous way.

    I LOVE THIS!  This is such a fantastic arc for him, and it makes so much sense for his character.  I actually never knew that he despises his profession, but again, it makes a lot of sense.  He’s built up this cold and arrogant wall to shield him from the horrible reality of what he’s actually doing 🙁  I especially love that part about Lorcan deciding to achieve peace the righteous way!  It’s just such a touching end for his arc, plus it’s also a kind of scary reminder of just how easily people can be led to justify evil if their goal is “good…”

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