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Poets

Authentic Poetry (not a poem)

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  • #143277
    Sir Leeds
    @sir-leeds

    Let’s be honest with ourselves for a minute. Let’s put aside the idea that every poem has to have a Hallmark ending and sound like a Hallmark card and really genuinely ask ourselves what makes for a poem that feels authentic. Take a minute and think about it, and then please do comment your thoughts below. Let’s get an honest-to-goodness discussion going here.

     

    I think this is an issue with Christian poetry and Christian writing in general. I think sometimes we’re afraid to admit things concretely, and so we use abstractions or generalities to get around the hard truth that we’re human too. Yes, we’re in Christ. Yes, we’re new creations. But we’re still human too.

     

    Here’s an example of what I mean. If, in a poem or a story, I were to describe a hard season in my life, how would I go about describing it? Maybe I’d use metaphors like darkness, night, the cold, etc. and be as general as possible about it so my readers can’t really tell what I’m talking about. Maybe they relate to my poem because it’s so general that most people can relate to it on some level, but that doesn’t mean they think feels authentic. In all likelihood, they probably think of my poem the same way they think of inspirational quotes, fortune cookies, and cat posters.

     

    So why doesn’t that poem feel authentic? Maybe it’s because I haven’t put any skin in the game, so to speak. You know that person who asks for prayer and talks his/her way around the topic as much as possible, being as vague about it as possible? How close do you feel to that person? Do you feel like a close friend of that person? Probably not. I think sometimes we’re that person when it comes to our poems and stories, and I think our readers would rather we confide in them about the specifics like a close friend. And if that means our poems drop their meter or rhyme schemes or our stories’ endings don’t get wrapped up in perfect bows, then I think it’s worth it.

     

    But what do you think? What are some ways you think Christian writers, and specifically poets, can be more authentic with their writing?

    "We are far too easily pleased." - C. S. Lewis

    #143282
    Bethany
    @sparrowhawke

    @sir-leeds

    I’m glad you brought this up. I’m a very amateur poet so I’m always trying to get ideas on how to improve. I have noticed that my best poems are the ones where I do get specific and personal. With poetry you want to pack as much as possible into few words so if you want your poem to be effective, I think you have to get concrete. One of my favorite poems here on Story Embers is Cindy Green’s “Journal Entry”. She painted a vivid, detailed, and personal picture that I related to very much precisely because she got so specific.

    As I said, I’m very much an amateur so I don’t think I have much or any advice to give. I’m interested in seeing where this discussion goes and hopefully some others will chime in.

    Who are some of your favorite poets? I unfortunately have not read much poetry–I get most of my poetical inspiration from songwriters.

    "Can't have dirty garbage."

    #143295
    Sir Leeds
    @sir-leeds

    Hey @sparrowhawke , thanks for keeping this conversation going. I’d rather hear from an amateur (someone who does something for the love of it) than a professional any day of the week. One of my favorite contemporary poets is an amateur. So if you’ve got any insights, I’d love to hear them.

     

    I really enjoy the works of Billy Collins, T. S. Eliot, W. B. Yeats, Dylan Thomas, Ted Kooser, Joy Harjo, Robert Frost, Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Charles Simic, Roise Curran, etc. And in the Bible, I can’t get enough of the last few passages in Job where God throws down some serious poetry with Job or John 1 where John perfectly sums up the Gospel in just a few poetic sentences.

     

    Here’s something I like to ask students whenever I do readings at college campuses: what has your experience with poetry been like? Did you first learn about it in school? Was it frustrating or enjoyable for you? Why did (or didn’t) you dig deeper into it and keep up with it?

    "We are far too easily pleased." - C. S. Lewis

    #143308
    Dakota
    @dakota

    @sir-leeds  Hello!

    I guess I would consider poetry part of who I am. It’s my way of processing, enjoying and struggling with life ever since I was little. Lately I haven’t written as many complete poems, (working full-time is more taxing on one’s creative life than I thought). Now I now expert by any means, but I still enjoy a good poem whenever I get my hands on one.

     

    My first introduction to poetry I probably don’t even remember. My mother read and sang to all of her children from day one. I’ve had poetry in my life every day, whether through children’s storybooks, school assignments or music. Music has probably the strongest poetic influence in my life, besides the Bible.

     

    For me, it’s been a struggle to ‘be real’ about the hard and the bitter things of life. You want to live a life full of the light of Christ. You want your writing to be a reflection of His. And yet, all manner of spiritual darkness surrounds us. But where else does the light shine the brightest? If there were no darkness, we would never look for the light. Of course, we do not delight in the spiritual darkness around us, nor glorify it. But, to show how glorious the light, how much we need it, it needs to be at least a little bit dark.

     

    Sorry, I think I got a little too poetic in that last paragraph. LOL. That’s my humble opinion on the subject. Hope it helps. 🙂

     

    Psalm 119:11
    Your word I have hidden in my heart,
    That I might not sin against You.

    #143347
    Bethany
    @sparrowhawke

    @sir-leeds

    I will look into those poets. I want to read more poetry but it’s been hard knowing where to start. The Bible definitely has some amazing poetry! I think studying writing and poetry has made me appreciate the Bible’s literary qualities so much more. Ecclesiastes is probably my favorite–although I suppose it’s more poetic prose.

    Well, I remember I did learn a little about poetry starting in third grade, I believe, and I did not like it. I think it’s because I was being taught poetic techniques and not really reading any poetry. And for a third grader (probably anyone actually) that’s pretty boring. I haven’t studied poetry too in-depth in school, but I have had the privilege of reading the great epics and other classic works that are written in verse. My personal poetry writing is sporadic and ranges from the silly to the serious. It tends to rhyme, because I personally like rhyme or at least some rhythm, but I’m trying to learn other forms. If it doesn’t rhyme, it probably has some repetition. Just this year actually, I wrote five poems inspired by The Scarlet Letter. They could use a lot of work, but I am proud I was able to finish a project for once.

    I think I’ve been digging deeper into poetry recently because of music. Well-written lyrics are incredibly inspiring to me.

    Are you familiar with William Cowper’s poetry? I’ve read a few of his poems and I really love his life story.

    "Can't have dirty garbage."

    #143350
    Sir Leeds
    @sir-leeds

    Hey @dakota and @sparrowhawke , again, thanks for continuing the conversation here.

     

    Dakota, I think you’re onto something there. By no means do we want to condone or encourage the kinds of dark things in our lives or the lives of our characters. But at the same time, what will the light be triumphant over if we glaze over the darkness or pretend it isn’t really there? It’s like those movies or books where you have a really weak, one-dimensional villain and it makes the hero seem weak by contrast, no matter how strong or courageous the hero actually is. Do you have any ideas for how to walk that line?

     

    And Bethany, no, I haven’t read any of Cowper’s poetry. I’ll have to look into it. And congrats on your The Scarlet Letter project! I hope you’re able to get it to the place you want it to be. I’ve heard the same thing about finding poetry boring from college students when I do poetry readings. They were forced to figure out all the rules behind poetry and then they were told to go and find out what it all means before they were allowed to just enjoy it. Imagine if we applied that same logic to other art forms. That’s why one of Billy Collins’ poem, “Introduction to Poetry,” will forever be one of my favorites to bring up in conversation:

     

    “I want them to waterski

    across the surface of a poem

    waving at the author’s name on the shore.

     

    But all they want to do

    is tie the poem to a chair with rope

    and torture a confession out of it.

     

    They begin beating it with a hose

    to find out what it really means.” – Billy Collins (“Introduction to Poetry”)

     

    I used to be solidly in the “if it doesn’t rhyme, it’s not poetry” camp until I had a humbling experience with a professional poet who wrote almost exclusively free verse. Now I enjoy good verse poetry every now and then, but I tend to lean toward the ones that make it look and feel effortless, like W. B. Yeats, Robert Frost, Wilfred Owen, etc. Some of their poems are written in everyday language, and sometimes you don’t notice that it rhymes unless you’re really paying attention. In fact, I think Wilfred Owen’s “Dulce et Decorum Est” is a great example of a poet who isn’t afraid to dig deep into the gritty details of WWI, yet still manages to follow a rhyme scheme. The rhyming reinforces the poem rather than making it feel awkward or forced. It feels raw and real, but it doesn’t glory in the gore. Quite the opposite, it warns against trying to glory in the gore of war.

     

    And I’ve heard songs (Christian songs, even) that dig deep into the specific realities of the dark world we live in that don’t come across as “preachy,” detached, or indulgent. They’re somehow able to come across as authentic and compassionate even in the midst of some really messed up stuff that’s going on in the world. Most of the ones I can think of that get really specific though are older, like 1990s and early 2000s old. And a lot of what I hear on Christian radio today is more feel-good worship music or vague “going through a struggle, but I remember God’s got this so it’s all good” music (which totally has its place, don’t get me wrong). It’s just that I wish there was more depth there. You know what I mean?

    "We are far too easily pleased." - C. S. Lewis

    #143404
    Bethany
    @sparrowhawke

    @sir-leeds

    Ooh that was a good poem. It reminds me of “When I Heard the Learn’d Astronomer”.

    I think I agree with you on free verse. I’ll look into those poets. I just get frustrated with what I call “Instagram poetry”–you probably know the kind. All lowercase and it just seems like a paragraph cut up into random line breaks. And the messages are usually trite. I think I’ve only read one of those poems that I actually liked.

    I think most, if not all, the Christian music I like would be considered “indie”. I’m not trying to be a hipster or anything–that’s just where the good lyrics and music are XD. I enjoy Twenty One Pilots as well.

    "Can't have dirty garbage."

    #143453
    Anne of Lothlorien
    @anne-of-lothlorien

    @sir-leeds Thanks for starting this topic! (I’m coming back to SE forums after probably a year of inactivity and this is my first discussion participation… I was wandering around looking for a conversation to join and immediately jumped on this one :D)

    I am an adamant free verse advocate! I can understand how people grow up thinking it doesn’t count as ‘real’ poetry… I think most of the focus when learning English in grade school and beyond is about rhyming, iambic pentameter, didactic tetrameter, and all that… (which absolutely has its place! There are thousands of fabulous traditional poems with perfect meter and rhyme) But I think the power and beauty of free verse is skipped over in general education, so people basically grow up thinking ‘poetry has to rhyme’. But I think we all agree it doesn’t. 😛

    Most of the best, deepest, tear-inducing, heart-wrenching poetry I’ve read and loved is free verse. I enjoy traditional poems, yes, but all the poems that have ripped me open and touched my heart have been in the non-traditional style. It’s my opinion that free verse more closely mirrors our lives. A perfectly rhyming, classical poem has a beauty and rhythm that can speak to you, but how often does someone’s life reflect that? Free verse has beauty and rhythm hidden beneath the surface. You have to search for the rhythm and pull the beauty out from layers of long and short sentences, choppy bits and bits where it runs on. Life is kinda like that… the beauty and the honesty isn’t always perfect and right there in front of your eyes.

    I think the lack of confines of free verse also let you demonstrate emotion better. If you’re worried about perfect and consistent meter and rhyme, you have to fit your emotion to a pre-sized box. You have to use words that maybe don’t tell exactly how you feel just because they rhyme. You have to cut short everything you want to say because it fits the meter better. Free verse is quite simply… free. While a good free verse writer still uses rhythm and rhyme of a different sort, he is free to expound on his emotions, to put in the raw and real language his heart is speaking in without worrying about fitting it to some blueprint.

    The way free verse reads also seems more personal. I’m sure it’s different for some people, but I think reading and hearing classical poetry brings to mind school and long-dead poets, assignments to analyze meanings, and Shakespeare. None of those are bad things! But free verse is like having someone talk to you. It’s natural. It can flow like a conversation and connect to you in a personal way.

    All that being said, I’m in no way bashing classical, rhyming poetry! I love it too! I just don’t love when people insist that it’s the only way to do poetry. XD

    Aaaaaand that was super long. 😛 I guess I’m more passionate about this than I thought. XD

    In regards to music… YES! So much of what I hear on the radio now, (looking at you 101.5) seems to be generic ‘I have troubles but God is good’. My favorite CCM artists are For King and Country and Andrew Peterson. Different styles, but both of these artists have music that I believe dives deeper. Real stories are told, real emotions are shared, and sometimes it makes me cry. (If you want suggestions… Andrew Peterson – World Traveler, Queen of Iowa, Labor of Love. FKAC – God Only Knows, Ceasefire, Proof of Your Love, To the Dreamers)

    I'm short, I like words, and I love people.
    No, I didn't draw my profile pic.

    #143519
    Sir Leeds
    @sir-leeds

    Hey @anne-of-lothlorien thanks for joining the conversation here! And I totally agree with you on a personal level because free verse has become my preferred poetry writing style for some of the same reasons as you shared. Free verse offers a lot of freedom of expression, and when it’s handled artfully, it can express a LOT in a very poetic way. I’ll admit some free verse poetry seems like it just randomly breaks the rules for the fun of it, but my favorite free verse poems are intentional about their line breaks. They use them to control the rhythm, emphasize certain words or phrases, create branches of meaning, etc.

     

    Probably the first time I admitted to the power of free verse was in a free verse poem my creative writing teacher challenged me to write. Two lines stood out to him in particular, and through those two lines, he helped me see the value in it all. They went something like this:

    “And there is no air

    conditioning this black Crown Vic”

    My instructor told me it was really cool how I’d created a double meaning, and how both of those meanings complimented each other well.

     

    Now that’s not to say that some of these same things can’t be accomplished in traditional form. I think Frost, Yeats, Owen, Dickinson, etc. stand as testimonies to that. But I will acknowledge that I believe that the impact of a poem should come first and its form should enforce rather than detract from that impact. So if I can write a very impactful poem in free verse and a moderately impactful poem around the same theme with verse, I’ll go with free verse, and vice versa. In fact, some of my tankas (they’re like haikus but a smidge longer) are more impactful than my attempts at free verse with the same idea in mind. There’s always room for experimentation with poetry 🙂

     

    Now that we’ve had some good discussion on what makes for good, authentic poetry, @dakota , @sparrowhawke , @anne-of-lothlorien , what do you think about each of us sharing one of our own poems that we think is really authentic in this thread and using it to discuss what we find authentic about it or what others have said about it? No pressure and no fear of judgement about any autobiographical details in said poems. I just figured it could be a good way to give some concrete material to this discussion.

    "We are far too easily pleased." - C. S. Lewis

    #143522
    Dakota
    @dakota

    @sir-leeds

    Oh, now you’ve got me in a corner! LOL! Let’s see – like say a villain set out to find hope for himself, that something that would fulfill him. Of course, he goes all the wrong patha looking for it, commiting all manner of evil to get it, but still is empty. Untill, right as he is commiting or aabout his worst evil yet, someone does something that grabs his attention who has that hope he’s searching for, who has been there all along. He just didn’t see it before.

     

    For a poetry example, someone is writing their honest feelings after attending a dear friend funeral. Poem would dive deep into a sea of hurt, confusion, pain, maybe even bitterness and anger. There would be few bright moments scattered through out, of the author reminiscing good memories with his friend. But after each bright moment, it plunges into darkness deeper still until it reaching a climax, of whether the writer will drown himself in these dark emotions, or lift his head up and look for the Hope, the Light of this world. He might not right away reach the conclusion that Jesus is the hope for the hurting, but at least the poems ends with a knowledge that he will find Him.

     

    I hope I make sense. Lol.

     

    I wouldn’t mind posting poems to discuss.

    Psalm 119:11
    Your word I have hidden in my heart,
    That I might not sin against You.

    #143679
    Emily Waldorf
    @emily-waldorf

    @sir-leeds, I agree with you that poetry should be genuine, but I disagree with your diagnosis. If you’re sacrificing meter and rhyming scheme for genuineness, all you’re left with is genuineness–no poetry at all. There are some themes that poetry was not meant to cover: some topics/themes that cannot be both what you describe as genuine and also a poem. That doesn’t mean that the topic/theme cannot be excellent elsewhere. But I would say that if you have to sacrifice the heart of poetry (meter certainly and arguably rhyme scheme) in order to reach the soul of genuineness, you are trying to squeeze a topic into a poem that would be better art somewhere else. An essay, or a short story, or some other medium.

    On that Day I want those who hated me most to have the least to say against me. ~Quin Miller

    #143689
    Sir Leeds
    @sir-leeds

    Hey @emily-waldorf , welcome to the discussion! I think you raise an interesting topic for discussion. What is the heart of poetry? I think it’s a good question to be asking ourselves and I’ll pass the question along to anyone else in this thread as well.

     

    I don’t know as though I would say that genuineness is the heart of poetry; but I have heard complaints that there seems to be an apparent lack of authenticity of voice in today’s Christian poetry (I wrote a fairly lengthy paper on this for one of my master’s degree courses), if not other areas of Christian literature in general (which it seems the overcoming of which is one of Story Embers’ stated missions), so that’s why I brought the topic up for discussion. To be clear, the majority of contemporary Christian poetry may be authentic, but the complaints are that it doesn’t sound authentic, and one of poetry’s traditional strengths is its sound. So what makes for a more authentic sound? I tend to think an everyday cadence, a certain vulnerability, and a healthy dose of specificity could go a long way, but I didn’t start this thread just to hear myself type. So, to anyone who reads this, what do you think makes for an authentic sounding poem?

     

    Now in defense of free verse, I’ll appeal to those more experienced and respected than myself in laying out its standing as poetry as well as its roots in the Bible. From Edward Hirsch’s “A Poet’s Glossary” in the section on free verse:

    “[Free verse is a] poetry of organic rhythms, of deliberate irregularity, improvisatory delight. Free verse is a form of nonmetrical writing that takes pleasure in a various and emergent verbal music…The term free verse is a literal translation of vers libre, which was employed by French symbolist poets seeking freedom from the strictures of the alex­andrine. It has antecedents in medieval alliterative verse, in highly rhythmic and rhymed prose, in Milton’s liberated blank-verse lines and verse para­graphs. But the greatest antecedent is the King James versions of the Psalms and the Song of Songs, based in part on the original Hebrew cadences.”

    In other words, free verse finds a relative in the poetry (unless of course you would argue that it isn’t actually poetry based on the fact that it doesn’t follow English metrical or rhyming norms) of the Psalms and Song of Songs. So I think a legitimate question would be “should the Psalms and Song of Songs have been written as prose when they were translated?” If not, then what makes them poetry when translated into English and what value is added in their being structured as poetry in English translations?

    "We are far too easily pleased." - C. S. Lewis

    #143690
    Sir Leeds
    @sir-leeds

    Also, I would like to hear about one of these topics or themes that cannot or should not be found in poetry. I do enjoy a good challenge 😉

    "We are far too easily pleased." - C. S. Lewis

    #143700
    Anne of Lothlorien
    @anne-of-lothlorien

    @emily-waldorf I’m also intrigued… what would you define as a theme that poetry was not meant to cover? How would one determine whether or not a subject should be used for his poetry, if certain subjects were taboo? What if you were able to use a difficult subject for a poem that had perfect rhyme and meter, but it wasn’t that great of a poem? Is it more acceptable than a free verse that deals with that subject in a rawer, deeper way without rhyming?

    If you just google the ‘definition of poetry’ it says this…  “Literary work in which special intensity is given to the expression of feelings and ideas by the use of distinctive style and rhythm.” ‘Distinctive style and rhythm’ is also used in good free verse. Note it says nothing about rhyming. What it seems to be saying here is also that the heart of poetry is ‘special intensity given to the expression of feelings and ideas’, not meter and rhyme scheme. I would see meter and rhyme as the vehicles of poetry, but not the heart of it. The heart of poetry is reality. It is genuineness, it is honesty, it is stripping back the layers to get to the heart of this world, our own lives, relationships, thoughts, and dreams. The heart of poetry is how well it speaks to the reader. If I can touch someone’s heart and affect their mind by sacrificing some perfect rhymes, I won’t hesitate.

     

    I'm short, I like words, and I love people.
    No, I didn't draw my profile pic.

    #143701
    Anne of Lothlorien
    @anne-of-lothlorien

    @sir-leeds

    Yes, I’d definitely agree that if the traditional poem was better and more honest, I’d go with that, but if the free verse touches more people and is more honest, I’ll go with that. Personally, I find the vehicle of free verse easier to share emotions in almost any day, likely due to the lack of confinement. Not to say that all free verse is just ‘whatever you want’… it should still have a rhythm and ‘rhyme’ of its own. But it’s still ‘freer’ than traditional poetry.

    Could you explain tankas more? I’ve never heard of those.

    I’d love to share some poetry! I’ll think of which poems to share later, but right now if you wish to read a free verse of mine, I recently had a piece published on the Story Embers Blog, entitled ‘Midnight Thoughts’. It’s about the creative process and the art of brainstorming. 🙂

    I'm short, I like words, and I love people.
    No, I didn't draw my profile pic.

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