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Fantasy Writers

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Viewing 15 posts - 46 through 60 (of 127 total)
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  • #145278
    R.M. Archer
    @r-m-archer

    Hey Archer, how’s life? 🙂

    Eh. Depends on the day. Today’s been pretty good, aside from the fact that most of my brain cells have been dead all evening.

    for now I’ll just say that I think there is a very big difference between a character explicitly using a strong sexually crude word or profanity, and a character using non-sexual, non-profane filler language or merely using the phrase “she cursed.” (which I am a big fan of)

    I agree with phrases like “so-and-so cursed,” or (as discussed earlier) fantasy world-specific curses. In the vast majority of situations, I’d say those are plenty sufficient. The only situation I’ve ever come across where an actual word might be necessary was one where a character would respond with only one word as a stronger alternative for “baloney.” Again, I think the situations in which it’s necessary are extremely rare. (And there are specific curses I don’t think are ever useful.) But I’m not sure those situations can never exist, either.

    Just so we’re on the same page, are you categorizing all curse words under profanity or just a particular subset?

    the question still remains is it edifying to others to have a stray curse word?

    That’s where considering the conscience of others comes in, and Ephesians 4:29. If it’s not edifying to the reader, it probably shouldn’t be there, which is part of the reason it should be such a careful and last-resort decision.

    Again, I bring up Colossians 3:5, 8. Paul talks about ‘putting to death sexual immorality, lust, impurity,’ etc, and then in verse 8 he says, “Now, put away all the following: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and filthy language from your mouth. It seems unlikely that when he says we should ‘killing’ this sin, and ‘putting it away’ that he means to completely exterminate one, while use the other for edifying reasons. It wouldn’t make sense. While I see what you’re saying, I agree with Brian, and say there does not appear to be ‘edifying’ cursing in scripture. Indeed, even swearing an oath is held in a bad light.

    That’s a fair argument.

    There are a couple of things in there that I sort of puzzle over, since anger is not (even in scripture) an inherently negative thing. Sinning in anger is, but anger itself is not. God Himself gets angry, even wrathful, and God swears oaths. But that’s its own topic to work through. Which things are sins for us because we’re fallen humans that are not sin for a perfect God, and which we’re given more information on elsewhere as to when they are or are not sin, and which are just sin period…

    However, Christ was the most edifying, encouraging, God centered person who ever lived, and he told many stories and never found the need to curse.

    I think calling the Pharisees “whitewashed tombs” kinda toed the line. But I’m not going to throw out your whole argument over that.

    If one is going to use a swear word, it should be prayed over, indeed, if it is being used by a Christian writer, it should be only with a clean conscience that it is for a good purpose. If it is, is should be well prayed over, and that writer should give glory to God, so that it is apparent that this book is not centered around cursing; rather that the cursing brings one closer to the Creator.


    @noah-cochran
    What he said.

    Personally, if there is any sort of swearing that is okay to write in a book, then I don’t think it needs to be prayed over. The bible is God’s message of what is okay to say and do, and trying to get as close to the line what is sinful and what is not as possible by praying about it is not the point. The point is to flee temptation and run away from the line of sin. This is not to say that prayer isn’t important, prayer is of vast importance, but one should not be praying about how close to sin they can get. That is the wrong kind of prayer.

    Eh. While I can understand where you’re coming from, I think this is another “not laying a stumbling block” thing. If I’m not going to start cussing or get coarse words or ideas stuck in my head from using a word and my conscience is clear for myself but I don’t know if the word would be problematic for my audience, then I might not think it’s sinful to use the word but be praying over whether or not it’s helpful. Just because “all things” are lawful for me doesn’t mean that all things are helpful (for me or for my audience; with “all things” referring, again, to matters of conscience).

    Does that make sense? I don’t know if I communicated that very well. (Dead brain cells and all that. XP)

    Speculative fiction author. Mythology nerd. Worldbuilding enthusiast. Singer. Fan of classic literature.

    #145280
    R.M. Archer
    @r-m-archer

    I think something you need to remember is the Bible is rated R. It’s not a children’s story. It contains murder, sexual assault, a father who murders his daughter, and a lowly carpenter hanging naked on a tree. Yet the Bible does not use it wantonly. It uses for a purpose.

    Documentation is not the same as advocation, and again, no swear word, IMO, should be used in Christian fiction, or books in general. I simply state that perhaps you are being a little to hasty in your judgement. ‘Foul language and crude speech,’ that the Bible forbids could extend to excessive sarcasm, or anything, like gossip. Do we then never document gossip in our books? Not if it is for a purpose.

    Exactly. (Aside from maybe the “should never be used,” but I think that’s a given based on the thread as a whole. XD) The Bible is not “clean,” and nothing in Scripture specifies “curse words” as the language being referred to in those passages. (Which I don’t say to count curse words out of that category, but to ditto that the category likely extends beyond them.)

    Speculative fiction author. Mythology nerd. Worldbuilding enthusiast. Singer. Fan of classic literature.

    #145281
    Crazywriter
    @crazywriter

    @r-m-archer

     

    Im glad we see eye to eye on some things, but I do say it is a fine line to walk. That’s why I would say never because we are sinners, and err everyday. To walk such a fine line is a dangerous, so while I wish you the best, I wish you caution as well. However you have displayed your appreciation for caution as well, so I trust you will do what you trust is biblical.

    #145282
    Crazywriter
    @crazywriter

    @r-m-archer

     

    Also, looking back, and correct me if I’m wrong, I said never in regard to wantonly using swear words, not saying never just in general

    #145283
    R.M. Archer
    @r-m-archer

    Im glad we see eye to eye on some things, but I do say it is a fine line to walk. That’s why I would say never because we are sinners, and err everyday. To walk such a fine line is a dangerous, so while I wish you the best, I wish you caution as well. However you have displayed your appreciation for caution as well, so I trust you will do what you trust is biblical.

    *nods\* I can certainly appreciate that. And it may be worth mentioning that I’ve never personally included a (real-world) swear word in any of my books. That one example I used of the “baloney” alternative was the only time it’s even crossed my mind for my own work, and it’s literally been sitting there with “baloney” marked as a placeholder for years because I still haven’t decided whether or not I need it.

    Also, looking back, and correct me if I’m wrong, I said never in regard to wantonly using swear words, not saying never just in general

    “Documentation is not the same as advocation, and again, no swear word, IMO, should be used in Christian fiction, or books in general” read like a “never” to me, but I’ve been known to misinterpret things so I may have just read it wrong within the context.

    Speculative fiction author. Mythology nerd. Worldbuilding enthusiast. Singer. Fan of classic literature.

    #145284
    Noah Cochran
    @noah-cochran

    @crazywriter

     I think something you need to remember is the Bible is rated R. It’s not a children’s story. It contains murder, sexual assault, a father who murders his daughter, and a lowly carpenter hanging naked on a tree. Yet the Bible does not use it wantonly. It uses for a purpose.

    I’ll try to respond to the rest of what you and Archer said soon, but I needed to respond to this before I go to bed. xD

    The bible is by no means rated R. Just because it mentioned all those sins and atrocities does not mean it explicitly describes them. It does not explicitly describe strong language, sexual assault, fornication, nakedness, or even murder. I think it is just fine and even beneficial to a to books– historical fiction books in particular–to mention all of these atrocities, but there is a difference between mentioning them, and showing them  explicitly (like R rated movies). Just mentioning these things means that it may not be for certain audiences, it does not mean it is a sinful R rating.  And swearing should be treated the same as all those other sins or sexual things. We can mention it, but not explicitly describe it (or in the case of swearing, come out in say the bad word–which is why I like “she/he cursed”).

    Was that coherent?

    #145285
    Crazywriter
    @crazywriter

    @noah-Cochran

    Of course we shouldn’t go into detail, but I disagree with you. The Bible is rated R in the sense that it is not to be taken lightly, and the things in it are real things that happened, and they’re not pretty. No, it’s not literally R in the sense of describing every nook and cranny, but yes it is a tough book. Yet these do not detract from it. It’s Gods word.

    Think about this. It’s the message of how to be saved from a place that if you go there, after a billion years you won’t be any closer to the end than the beginning. And it’s not  separation from God, it’s separation from Gods goodness. He is the burning and consuming fire, the one who is punishing those in hell. But it’s for his glory, and so is the story of how we can trust in him and be saved. It’s for a purpose. Hell  is scary. Hell is R. But the reason salvation is so sweet is because of that fact. So yes, there is a place for nondescript things that make the good that much sweeter. Emphasis on nondescript.

     

    #145292
    Emily Waldorf
    @emily-waldorf

    Ha! I’ve got a good one:

    Is Hamlet a good man, or a prince with a God-complex?

    Would King Claudius have repented if Hamlet only gave him more time?

    Hier steche ich. Ich kann nicht anders. Gott helfe mir. Amen. ~Martin Luther

    #145300
    Taylor Clogston
    @taylorclogston

    “It does not explicitly describe strong language, sexual assault, fornication, nakedness, or even murder.”

    It actually does describe R-rated things in some detail, including several of these. I’m not going to reference them for obvious reasons, but have you actually read all the Old Testament?

    "...the one with whom he so sought to talk has already interceded for him." -The Master and Margarita

    #145304
    Noah Cochran
    @noah-cochran

    @taylorclogston and @crazywriter

    How’s it going Taylor? 🙂

    Yes, I have read the whole old testament, and some of it twice or thrice.

    So when I say R rating explicitness, I mean stuff like sexual intercourse scenes that are either shown on screen or very much described in writing, nakedness in movies (which in a book would be someone meticulously describing the nudity of a person, which the bible most definitely does not do), and explicit language like the F word (which to even infer the bible does makes me sick–not that either of you were inferring that). Seeing or reading extreme violence that an R rated movie would have is a point that could be argued on whether it is bad or not, but suffice it to say, the bible says to dwell on things that are pure and of good report (Philippians 4), and I don’t think immersing oneself in extreme violence is a good idea (but again, violence is a small deal compared to everything else).

    Anyway, nothing is explicitly described like you would see in an R rated movie, it’s not even close. R rated movies and books have explicit sexual scenes and plentiful use of sexual language. The bible has neither. The most darkly described scenes I can think of in the bible are violence and sexual sin in Judges (which is not meticulously described whatsoever), and rape and abuse in Genesis or 2 Samuel (which is also not described much at all, and nothing near what a R rated film would do). There’s Jesus being crucified, but that isn’t meticulously described like seeing it on film would be (and that’s just violence for the most part, not sexual stuff or language). If there is some verse that contains some explicitness I’m missing, please let me know.

    Hell  is scary. Hell is R.

    Please inform to why Hell is R rated? R rated does not mean scary or wicked, it means that one is imbuing themselves with explicit violence, sexual language, or sexual content.

    The actualities of hell and the bible has to say about it should be taught to young and old (and by young I mean younger than a teenager).

    #145306
    Taylor Clogston
    @taylorclogston

    @noah-cochran Hey Noah! I’m doing well, and hope you are also.

    R rated does not mean scary or wicked, it means that one is imbuing themselves with explicit violence, sexual language, or sexual content.

    Everyone’s going to mean slightly different things regarding their definition of this, especially when talking about books rather than films, since books don’t get MPA ratings.

    My general definition for “R-Rated” regarding books is “stuff I wouldn’t recommend to teenagers without a careful content warning.” I don’t agree with yours, and it’s not one which even necessarily lines up with actual film ratings. You can drop the F-bomb at least once in a PG-13 movie, for example, and have quite a lot of sexual content and violence while maintaining that rating. Blood and gore are usually what tip the scales to R, and there’s a ton of variance in what “R” constitutes in film.

    Compare, for example, the different cuts of Justice League by Joss Whedon and Zack Snyder. Snyder added more language and more blood, but the general level of violence is pretty much the same. There’s a bit more brutality to how some people die, for example getting clearly decapitated or disintegrated.

    Compare that to gory horror movies or sleazy comedies, and you can end up with completely different kinds of content in one R movie or another.

    Frankly, the account of the Levite’s concubine in Judges 19 should be R-rated. I don’t care how explicit the description is.

    It would be irresponsible for me to give the most explicit bits of the OT, so I won’t.

    "...the one with whom he so sought to talk has already interceded for him." -The Master and Margarita

    #145307
    Emily Waldorf
    @emily-waldorf

    I agree with you @noah-cochran

    The Bible has content which, if put in media would warrant an R rating, but it is above all very discreet, so that children may read it without problem. That isn’t the case with anything R-rated in media these days; parents are warned to keep children away. As a matter of fact, I don’t believe that R-rated media should exist (Okay, Maybe if it’s a war movie/book it’s okay?) but the Bible is perfectly good and without error.

    Hier steche ich. Ich kann nicht anders. Gott helfe mir. Amen. ~Martin Luther

    #145308
    Crazywriter
    @crazywriter

    @noah-Cochran @emily-Waldorf

     

    My friends, I believe the rating you are confusing with R is M. M is explicit sexual content. R can be war violence, scary movies, and the like.
    I agree that the Bible does not go into explicit detail. However with a little understanding you can see that the Bible isn’t soft. It’s not cuddly. The argument you make @noah-Cochran is true, but I believe that you must understand that though the Bible isn’t per se R in the sense it doesn’t describe the sexual scenes or other stuff explicitly, it does document the events happening. Now, I am not arguing for understanding for sexual content in books because that is wrong and demonic no matter the way the author puts it. I am saying that documenting is different than description.

     

    For instance, a war movie I am fond of is called We Were Soldiers. It is the story of the first US conflict in Vietnam. It has some of the most grim displays of war I know, yet it is a beautifully painted picture because it points to the fact that war is bad. Indeed it is a warning for future generations.

    I like your use of Phillipians 4, however that very passage backs up the fact that should pray about everything, either for help to refrain from it, or wisdom to do it. I believe the argument for prayer over book-writing is undeniable, even by the verses you mention. If the Bible says pray over everything, it doesn’t mean pray over everything in the same way, but still the fact remains that we should pray over everything!

    However, perhaps we should change the subject, and go to a topic that we may agree in more.

    #145311
    Isaiah
    @allertingthbs

    Are pop-tarts ravioli?

    "Only a Sith deals in absolutes"
    -Quipmaster 2005

    #145312
    Isaiah
    @allertingthbs

    In seriousness, I’ll just throw this out there real quick. The greatest commandments as described by the Big Man Himself are “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself.” I think the way to weigh what’s acceptable or proper is to compare it to these things.

    Is course language something that prevents you from loving God or your neighbor?

    And yes the Bible is very much R rated. “An R-rated motion picture, in the view of the Rating Board, contains some adult material. An R-rated motion picture may include adult themes, adult activity, hard language, intense or persistent violence, sexually-oriented nudity, drug abuse or other elements, so that parents are counseled to take this rating very seriously. Children under 17 are not allowed to attend R-rated motion pictures unaccompanied by a parent or adult guardian. Parents are strongly urged to find out more about R-rated motion pictures in determining their suitability for their children. Generally, it is not appropriate for parents to bring their young children with them to R-rated motion pictures.” -MPAA Ratings (movielabs.com)

    Toodles

    • This reply was modified 5 months, 1 week ago by Isaiah.

    "Only a Sith deals in absolutes"
    -Quipmaster 2005

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