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  • #145172
    Rose
    @rose-colored-fancy

    @noah-cochran

    That was literally the first thing that jumped into my mind when Cathy said you were Jewish (because you had mentioned Jesus saving people, and Judaism most definitely does not believe that).

    I knew it would throw you off XD It confuses everyone. About 90% of people just give me blank stares when I say Messianic. There’s more of us than you’d think but somehow nobody has heard of it.

    I’ve watched several of Snappy Dragon’s videos, she has great content. The only thing I don’t like about her is that she likes to mention how she is an agnostics and that she left Judism in several of her videos. It gets annoying. xD

    It does. I don’t agree with her, but I appreciate her covering that part of history.

    Well, let me ask you at least a couple questions. Firstly, did Jewish women always wear head coverings in the medieval era? (Snappy makes it seem like they do) Secondly, were the Jewish quarters of towns walled in during the 12th and 13th centuries?

    Pfff… I have no clue. Lemme see… *A couple google searches later*

    Apparently, it depended on whether it was a ghetto or a quarter. Ghettos were generally walled, since living outside of them wasn’t an option. Quarters were enforced, but there weren’t any actual walls.

    Here is an article that may be a starting off point for you. (Edit, it’s jamming with the links, I’ll post them seperately.

    As for headcoverings, as I mentioned before, headcoverings were seen as a modesty thing for all Medieval women. An uncovered head would be approximately equivalent to a low neckline in modern times.

    Short answer, yes, at all times in public after she was married.

    I found a source that explains how it worked pretty well. (The Talmudic period they’re talking about is from 200-500 CE)

    Over here.

    Also, to clarify, most of this is Talmudic law. (It has the exact passages in the text) It isn’t biblical, but it is what they followed at the time. Basically, it’s accurate for your research but not what we Messianics follow. We don’t follow Talmudic laws, only biblical law. In fact, I’ve never studied any of the Jewish oral law XD

    Okay, that makes me feel better. I almost called that other shield  “heater-shaped” but I’ve got in a habit of calling it a diamond shaped shield (it just sounds less weird xD).

    It’s an incredibly weird name XD

    Of course you are. With a cloak, and skills like yours, you’ll be the world’s first superhero.

    LOL, that’s vast hyperbole, I know like three things. But perhaps the awesomeness of my cloak can make up for it.

    Btw, what is the difference between a mantle and a cloak? At first I thought it was that mantle’s couldn’t have hoods, but now I’m just confused.

    Once again, one google search later, I come to the conclusion that mantle is more generally used to refer to official garments while a cloak is just the name of the garment itself.

    Without darkness, there is no light. If there was no nighttime, would the stars be as bright?

    #145173
    Rose
    @rose-colored-fancy

    On Medieval Jewish ghettos:

    Jewish Word | Ghetto

    Without darkness, there is no light. If there was no nighttime, would the stars be as bright?

    #145174
    Rose
    @rose-colored-fancy

    On head coverings:

    https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/covering-of-the-head

    Is this just general research/curiosity or is it for a writing project? I don’t recall anything more than a passing mention in TTD.

    Without darkness, there is no light. If there was no nighttime, would the stars be as bright?

    #145187
    Rose
    @rose-colored-fancy

    @noah-cochran

    So, I noticed something in your manuscript that I wanted to talk to you about. It’s a subjective observation, but hear me out on this one since I’ve been noticing it a lot.

    Delphine, Adrienne, and Joelle are acting in ways that seem illogical to me. Specifically those three, because it’s about a specific thing. In short, the girls sound like they were written by a guy XD

    Their reactions are often odd based on the situation. A specific instance I’m thinking of is the scene where Delphine stops Hugon on his way down.

    Her reaction is to calmly question him. I mean… maybe?? but it doesn’t make sense to me.

    Put yourself in her situation. She came upstairs, alone. It’s relatively dark or dimly lit. She’s nowhere close to anyone else, there probably isn’t anyone within earshot, and then she sees a strange man in her bedroom.

    I wouldn’t have calmly talked to him. Every alarm bell in my head would have gone off at the exact same time and I would have sprinted all the way until I was with other people and not looked back.

    That’s an extremely dangerous situation for her. To her it’s a new stablehand or a complete stranger.  If she was a man, this probably would have been different. She probably would have been comfortable enough to talk to him and find out what he was doing there, but for her it’s very different.

    And later, Adrienne’s reaction to it doesn’t quite line up either. Assuming Delphine still stuck around long enough, I don’t think Adrienne’s reaction to Hugon chucking Delphine under the chin would have been to find it amusing. Delphine would have been uncomfortable, very probably scared. I don’t think Adrienne would find that funny, I think she would have given Hugon a scolding.

    And there’s another instance, way later on, in chapter… 35 I think, where Tristan looks Delphine up and down, practically judging how pretty she is, and she blushes. That isn’t a compliment. She’s uncomfortable, or at least, she should be, and he doesn’t notice or care. Nothing is so awful as getting checked out like that. It’s humiliating, embarrassing, and uncomfortable. I had the immense urge to slap Tristan through the screen.

    Also, you often accentuate how pretty all three of them are, and there’s nothing necessarily wrong with that, but it shouldn’t be universal or defining.

    Not everything they do has to be pretty. Some instances I remember off the top of my head are when Joelle’s wearing a fancy dress while about to ride and sweat and get dirty.

    Also, that other scene where Tristan makes some comment about how Delphine is pretty despite being unhappy. Why is that necessary? Let her be unhappy and ugly, feelings aren’t supposed to be pretty.

    Same with Tristan thinking that Delphine is pretty when she’s blushing instead of thinking about what embarrassed her and stopping it because it’s making her feel bad.

    Essentially, their traits shouldn’t automatically be measured by pretty/not pretty. It doesn’t matter, it makes them seem more trivial, like they’re decoration for the story.

    In general, Tristan and Hugon tend to be dismissive of Delphine, Adrienne, and Joelle. They don’t particularly care about what they’re feeling, they just care if it gets in the way of what they’re doing.

    And on that note, they tend to speak quite disrespectfully to and about the women. It’s nothing blatant, but I’ve noticed it multiple times.

    This may be intentional because it’s in character, but is it necessary? To me, it just makes them outright idiots and I genuinely want to hit them next time they’re rude. They aren’t treating the girls as equally competent, they’re treating them as an afterthought.

    A bigger issue is that Delphine and the other girls don’t seem to recognize it. Hugon treats Adrienne like a nuisance with no sign of repenting until after she’s dead.

    Tristan constantly dismisses Delphine and treats her like a pretty bother even when she’s trying to help and she doesn’t seem to notice and doesn’t resent him for it.

    This may change later in the book but so far it’s something you may need to fix.

    I’m not saying I have absolute truth on this, I only have one perspective, but I wanted to throw it out there. My perspective isn’t going to be yours, and someone else isn’t going to agree with either of us.

    I highly recommend you get other female beta readers to give their opinion on it and maybe ask your sisters. It’s something that’s easy to get wrong, and most people don’t bother fixing it. I’m just asking you to think it over and ask some others.

    (And I gave you an essay again XD Man, I had a lot of trouble writing this, I really don’t mean it to come across harsh, I just want TTD to be as good as it can be, it has a lot of potential and so do the characters!)

    Without darkness, there is no light. If there was no nighttime, would the stars be as bright?

    #145242
    Noah Cochran
    @noah-cochran

    @rose-colored-fancy

    I really don’t mean it to come across harsh, I just want TTD to be as good as it can be

    Hey, everything’s good. 🙂 I appreciate your candor, euphemisms and beating around the bush never helped anyone. I really hope all my betas respond like this, I want to know their exact thoughts and dislikes so I can weigh them all against each other and find a good solution.

    And there’s another instance, way later on, in chapter… 35 I think, where Tristan looks Delphine up and down, practically judging how pretty she is, and she blushes.

    In general, Tristan and Hugon tend to be dismissive of Delphine, Adrienne, and Joelle. They don’t particularly care about what they’re feeling, they just care if it gets in the way of what they’re doing.

    And on that note, they tend to speak quite disrespectfully to and about the women. It’s nothing blatant, but I’ve noticed it multiple times.

    Okay, so Tristan is not all supposed to be that way, so I must have messed him up pretty badly. xD I did not at all mean for the inn scene in chapter 35 to be construed that way, so I’ve fixed that one, but can you give me some more instances of Tristan being disrespectful to women or just plain out acting like a jerk to them (he is not supposed to be that way)?

    Also, you often accentuate how pretty all three of them are, and there’s nothing necessarily wrong with that, but it shouldn’t be universal or defining.

    First off, I finally have met another teenager who uses the word accentuate instead of “emphasize.” Accentuate is so much better.

    Anyway, to the point. Yes, this is a problem of mine. I have a habit of re-describing facial features, hairstyles and colors, clothing, and builds (of both men and women). My sister got onto me about this, in particular for calling Delphine’s face pretty like 5 times and Hugon’s hair blonde like 6. xD So yeah, I’ll go through it can cut out a lot of the slender forms, beautiful faces, blonde hairs, and lean bodies.

    Also, that other scene where Tristan makes some comment about how Delphine is pretty despite being unhappy. Why is that necessary? Let her be unhappy and ugly, feelings aren’t supposed to be pretty.

    I would agree that this introspection scene as a whole was unnecessary (so I’ll probably remove it), but knowing the mind of men, a woman can be acting petulant or angry and still appear quite attractive. I think we’re discussing the same thing, but correct me if I’m wrong.

    I don’t think Adrienne would find that funny, I think she would have given Hugon a scolding.

    That might very well be true, I’ll definitely ask some of my female friends about this one.

    Okay, so there are a couple things I want to talk through with you, firstly, this:

    Tristan constantly dismisses Delphine and treats her like a pretty bother even when she’s trying to help and she doesn’t seem to notice and doesn’t resent him for it.

    Delphine is a bold, overly curious, almost prying woman for the first half of the book, so much so that one of my other betas biggest complaint about the whole book was that they thought she was overly annoying. xD Now taking this from Tristan’s perspective, he also finds her exasperating, but this is multiplied in intensity with the stress of his father and her asking many questions about him. Tristan thus thinks of her as vivacious, but very annoying woman who often feels like a nuisance.

    The other aspect of this is Delphine has feelings for him, but he doesn’t exactly return them (he has too many things on his mind to think about it, and she frustrates him), but I don’t think this is what you were referring to, I just wanted to mention it.

    However, after they meet in Troyes, they start to bond, and if anything Tristan did there comes across as irritated at her or disdainful, please tell me so I can change it. My whole point is that Delphine’s behavior (and also because of who her father is) is the reason Tristan does not treat her like peer/friend/someone he can trust. I’m starting to think that none of that made since, but regardless, yes, I’ll be talking to others about this and comparing y’alls thoughts.

    The next thing I would like to quickly go over with you is Hugon. In my opinion, there is a difference between someone who is far from a nice person in a book, and a person who comes off as a complete jerk and has no depth. I hate the latter, but I’m fine with the former. The former is what Hugon was supposed to be for a lot of the book, but it appears you feel like he coming off as the latter. That was not my intention, so this is yet another question I will be asking others to get everyone’s thoughts on.

    As for Hugon and the women specifically, I am quite possibly deluded, but I thought he was treating everyone–men and women–equally bad and mockingly. xD That was kinda his character flaw, and Adrienne’s death is what knocked him out of his wrong mindset. Thoughts?

    Their reactions are often odd based on the situation. A specific instance I’m thinking of is the scene where Delphine stops Hugon on his way down.

    This is the main point I would actually like to argue with you (all that other stuff was just me presenting my thought process). I’m pretty sure one is not supposed to argue things with their betas, but I can’t resist on this one point, so here we go. 🙂 This is why I think Delphine would not be nervous what so ever in that very specific circumstance:

    • She is the bold, curious, daughter of a lord
    • She is in a castle full of men-at-arms who will come at a call
    • Only paces away in the great hall is Tristan, her father, and all the other people at the feast
    • She is used to seeing servants scurry back and forth, and she might have just assumed that Tristan had order Hugon to do something if it weren’t for her high amount of curiosity

    Do those points makes sense? Did I not present them well enough if the book? Is this all in my head and am I going mad? xD

    Delphine, Adrienne, and Joelle are acting in ways that seem illogical to me. Specifically those three, because it’s about a specific thing.

    Other those two times, are there any others? I very much would like to either fix them or ask other women about them.

    I highly recommend you get other female beta readers to give their opinion on it and maybe ask your sisters.

    I have four other teenage women reading it (Cathy included), so I’ll definitely be getting their thoughts on the female characters and the scenes you mentioned. Thanks again for taking the time to write all of that! 🙂

    Is this just general research/curiosity or is it for a writing project? I don’t recall anything more than a passing mention in TTD.

    It’s not for TTD.  I’m brainstorming and outlining a series, and two of the character are Jews or were Jews, so to research I went. So thanks for the sources and answers!

    #145294
    Rose
    @rose-colored-fancy

    @noah-cochran

    Hey, everything’s good.   I appreciate your candor, euphemisms and beating around the bush never helped anyone. I really hope all my betas respond like this, I want to know their exact thoughts and dislikes so I can weigh them all against each other and find a good solution.

    Whew, that’s a relief. I was overthinking it from the second I posted it 😉 I still struggle with giving critique sometimes.

    Also, I wanted to say I really appreciate how well you’re taking critique, it makes this whole project a pleasure to work on.

    I know it can be really overwhelming and discouraging to get that much critique and one almost always has a “this is going to be so much more work than I thought” moment. I know I definitely had that after my first critique.

    So, I wanted to add that your book is good. It really is, you have a lot of potential and you’re absolutely on the right track. But, of course, it’s a first draft, it’s going to have issues, but you’ll totally figure it out.

    Okay, so Tristan is not all supposed to be that way, so I must have messed him up pretty badly. xD I did not at all mean for the inn scene in chapter 35 to be construed that way, so I’ve fixed that one, but can you give me some more instances of Tristan being disrespectful to women or just plain out acting like a jerk to them (he is not supposed to be that way)?

    As I mentioned before, it’s really hard to pinpoint. It’s really minimal, if it weren’t for that instance in 35, I probably wouldn’t have brought it up.

    I’ll skim though the parts I remember and comment when I see something. I didn’t want to comment on it before because as I said, it’s subjective and a matter of perspective.

    First off, I finally have met another teenager who uses the word accentuate instead of “emphasize.” Accentuate is so much better.

    It is! I like how it looks, I like how it sounds, it’s just a pretty word! (I get very excited about pretty words XD)

    Anyway, to the point. Yes, this is a problem of mine. I have a habit of re-describing facial features, hairstyles and colors, clothing, and builds (of both men and women). My sister got onto me about this, in particular for calling Delphine’s face pretty like 5 times and Hugon’s hair blonde like 6. xD So yeah, I’ll go through it can cut out a lot of the slender forms, beautiful faces, blonde hairs, and lean bodies.

    I definitely noticed that, so yeah, that’s something to work on. You did apply it to everyone, so it’s not a specific issue to anyone. It’s one of those writerly quirks you don’t notice until someone points it out XD (I had the problem with all my characters nodding and raising eyebrows every. single. conversation XD)

    I would agree that this introspection scene as a whole was unnecessary (so I’ll probably remove it), but knowing the mind of men, a woman can be acting petulant or angry and still appear quite attractive. I think we’re discussing the same thing, but correct me if I’m wrong.

    We are, and I would agree with you on that introspection scene. It isn’t something he doesn’t already know.

    I get what you mean, but my point is that it’s putting her attractiveness over her emotions. It’s more important that she’s mad/uncomfortable about something than how she looks feeling it.

    It’s hard to articulate, I hope you get what I mean 🙂

    Delphine is a bold, overly curious, almost prying woman for the first half of the book, so much so that one of my other betas biggest complaint about the whole book was that they thought she was overly annoying.

    Okay, I think this is where our differences come in.

    loved Delphine. She’s one of my favorite characters. She’s in an interesting role, she knows what she wants and works to acheive it. I think one of the issues was that I never saw her curiosity/prying as a flaw. It’s a habit she acquired to function.

    Think about it, she’s the daughter of a castle lord, she doesn’t have much to work toward besides getting married. People don’t tell her things. I can imagine she’s often out of the loop, since people are quick to dismiss her.

    She isn’t content to sit around and let other people fix the issues, so she makes sure she knows what’s going on by asking endless questions. It annoys other people because apparently, they don’t think it’s her place.

    Now we’re on that note, Delphine has a lot of potential, and you aren’t using much of it. Think about how her brother’s death affected her. Even if she was really young, it impacted her environment in a major way. The heir suddenly died and her father was left without anyone to become castle lord after him.

    How did she take it? How did it change her, because it should have.

    Basically, that’s a direction to think in if you want to deepen her some. (Because she needs it, I can already tell she’s going to be a love interest and if you want your readers to ship it you need to give both depth.)

    I think this comes from that you have to see the situation from both character’s POV, as if each one thinks they’re the main character.

    I think that may be why I resented Tristan, because I saw his behavior as irrationally irritated because I was on Delphine’s side the entire time. I can still see where he’s coming from, he has a lot on his mind and he doesn’t trust Delphine just because of her family. I just wanted to bring it up so you can see why I thought that.

    Also, even though Delphine is attracted to Tristan, being so constantly dismissed and ignored would probably rile her up, considering her personality. You don’t have to make them all-out enemies, an eye-roll here and there and maybe a few snappish remarks from Delphine’s side would virtually fix your issue. If they clash a little at first the development will be more interesting.

    I like Delphine, she’s spunky and determined. You could however work on making her stand on her own more. You may need to add more internal motivation for her to be there. You don’t need to give her a full arc, but use her backstory to explain why she’s acting as she is. That would probably also fix your issue that people think she’s annoying. Characters are mostly annoying if you don’t understand them.

    In my opinion, there is a difference between someone who is far from a nice person in a book, and a person who comes off as a complete jerk and has no depth. I hate the latter, but I’m fine with the former. The former is what Hugon was supposed to be for a lot of the book, but it appears you feel like he coming off as the latter.

    He has depth, I suspect one of the reasons why he’s coming off as frustrating now and then is because you aren’t tying his behavior back to his backstory enough. You do it a couple times, but now and then there’s a blip where he just comes off as annoying. You’re like 70% there, there’s just some polishing to do.

    I think this may be coming back to an issue I’ve noticed throughout the book. You don’t have enough introspection. You mentioned in this thread that you think you have too much but I’d argue the opposite. It isn’t a massive issue and it is getting better near the end of the book, but it wouldn’t hurt to add more.

    This is the main point I would actually like to argue with you (all that other stuff was just me presenting my thought process). I’m pretty sure one is not supposed to argue things with their betas, but I can’t resist on this one point, so here we go

    Nono, you’re not arguing, you’re presenting your thoughts as you were writing it so we can pinpoint the issue.

    Do those points makes sense? Did I not present them well enough if the book? Is this all in my head and am I going mad? xD

    If you put it that way, I can see what you mean, but in that case you need to mention those points in-story as well, otherwise it seems quite irrational.

    Other those two times, are there any others? I very much would like to either fix them or ask other women about them.

    As I mentioned before, it’s really nothing blatant and it’s not going to ruin your book, it’s just something I picked up. I can’t think of a specific instance, but I’ll skim sections I remember and see if I can show what I mean better.

    I have four other teenage women reading it (Cathy included), so I’ll definitely be getting their thoughts on the female characters and the scenes you mentioned. Thanks again for taking the time to write all of that!

    You’re totally welcome, I was doubtful on whether it was actually necessary, but I wanted to throw it out there so you could judge for yourself.

    It’s not for TTD.  I’m brainstorming and outlining a series, and two of the character are Jews or were Jews, so to research I went. So thanks for the sources and answers!

    Oooh, that’s SO COOL!! Please tell me they’re a main character or at least an important character, I’ve never read it in a Medieval setting and I’d read it in a heartbeat! What have you got about the series so far? It sounds really interesting!

    Also, if you want to research culture, a good starting point is to see if they’d be Sephardic, Ashkenazi, or Mizrahi and work from there. (It’s the three major regions of the diaspora, with Ashkenazi being Europe, Mizrahi North African and Middle-east, and Sephardic in Spain and Portugal.)

    The three have very different cultural views, and once you figure out where your character would fit you can go from there.

     

    Without darkness, there is no light. If there was no nighttime, would the stars be as bright?

    #145295
    Rose
    @rose-colored-fancy

    @noah-cochran

    Oh, forgot to mention! I would absolutely love to see Joelle and Delphine interacting more. They seem like they’d have a really cool dynamic, even if there is some tension at the start.

    A pretty good opportunity for that is around chapter 36. It’s pretty probable that they’d share a room in the inn, since there are only so many rooms. I’d like to see how they’d interact! Just an idea 🙂

    Without darkness, there is no light. If there was no nighttime, would the stars be as bright?

    #145359
    Rose
    @rose-colored-fancy

    @noah-cochran

    TIS FINISHED!! The drawing took like two weeks and was an absolute nightmare in general but I’m so proud of it!

    IRL this wouldn’t fly because he’d totally spook at that cloak but it looks too cool to exclude XD

    Bless you for describing a sunset, I love drawing sunsets. The lighting on this one turned out just perfect.

    Without darkness, there is no light. If there was no nighttime, would the stars be as bright?

    #145393
    Noah Cochran
    @noah-cochran

    @rose-colored-fancy

    TIS FINISHED!! The drawing took like two weeks and was an absolute nightmare in general but I’m so proud of it!

    I love it.

    I. Love. It.

    I LOVE IT!!!

    I feel honored that you have drawn such beauty from my humble descriptions. 😉

    The wavy ripples in the mantle and horse’s mane are amazing. How long in hours do you think it took you?

    Okay, I think this is where our differences come in.

    I loved Delphine.

    To begin with, let me wholeheartedly agree with you.  I also love Delphine, and I personally don’t find her that annoying all (I’m biased of course xD). However, I’m not sure I agree in regard to Tristan’s perspective on her behavior. If my father is actually very strangely (almost guilty), and a young woman I have never met is prying into it, and asking endless questions, I would be more than annoyed. I might actually be somewhat afraid, and this fear would taint the enjoyment I might have had with the company of the overly curious woman. Thus, while I would have normally been interested in banter and talk to get to know a possible friend or spouse, the fear would ruin it and I would become more irritable, less interested in conversation and friendly small talk, and probably not pay the full respectful attention I should to a woman trying to talk with me. That is what Tristan’s behavior was supposed to be like all the way up until he met her in Troyes. Then, because his eyes had been opened about his father, he was now supposed to decided to trust her and then care for her.

    That is the way I think about it, but I will definitely be asking others about this to see what everyone thinks about it. My older sister and another young woman is supposed to be starting, but they’re taking their time to get started. xD

    You don’t have enough introspection.

    That’s the last thing I thought I would hear, but I will definitely add it to my revision list. xD

    Oooh, that’s SO COOL!! Please tell me they’re a main character or at least an important character, I’ve never read it in a Medieval setting and I’d read it in a heartbeat!

    One’s a main character, one is a major side character. The MC one is more of a former Jew than a current Jew though.

    What have you got about the series so far? It sounds really interesting!

    My brainstorming and outlining process needs work…to say the least. xD I built the character profiles for the main characters, but their arcs need some fleshing out. Having multiple arcs stretch across multiple books is a whole new deal than just working with a stand alone book. I have the gist of the antagonist’s plan and ultimate goal, but the preliminary conflicts and plot points need some serious work. So I have a question for you. From what I’ve found, having the ultimate end of the series, the climax of each book, and gist of the plot of each book planned out is necessary, but just how far do you take that? How much of the events of books 2-final did you have planned out when you started writing book 1?

    Also, if you want to research culture, a good starting point is to see if they’d be Sephardic, Ashkenazi, or Mizrahi and work from there. (It’s the three major regions of the diaspora, with Ashkenazi being Europe, Mizrahi North African and Middle-east, and Sephardic in Spain and Portugal.)

    Yes, I’ve studied the diaspora some, both of my characters are Ashkenazi in origin.

    The three have very different cultural views, and once you figure out where your character would fit you can go from there.

    Now that is something I would like to hear more about. How much do you know about their cultures and differences? I would love to hear everything you know. 🙂

    Oh, forgot to mention! I would absolutely love to see Joelle and Delphine interacting more. They seem like they’d have a really cool dynamic, even if there is some tension at the start. A pretty good opportunity for that is around chapter 36. It’s pretty probable that they’d share a room in the inn, since there are only so many rooms. I’d like to see how they’d interact!

    Now that is very interesting. I had literally put down on my revising document during my first revision to add some dialogue between Joelle and Delphine, and I had even put down to probably have in, guess what, chapter 36. xD I decided to know worry about that and add another whole section, but now that you’ve mentioned it, I definitely will. 🙂

    Yeah, normally they would be sharing the same room, but Joelle much prefers to stay with her men than with others, so I didn’t think that would be in her character to stay with Delphine.

    One more question for ya (I apologize for the amount of time I’m stealing from you). What did medieval hats look like (for both men and women)? What about 12th century helmets for both wealthier knights, and lower down men-at-arms?

    #145405
    Rose
    @rose-colored-fancy

    @noah-cochran

    I love it.

    I. Love. It.

    I LOVE IT!!!

    I feel honored that you have drawn such beauty from my humble descriptions.

    The wavy ripples in the mantle and horse’s mane are amazing. How long in hours do you think it took you?

    Aww, thank you! I’m really proud of it! I haven’t drawn a self-portrait since… elementary school and this is the first one I’m actually happy with. Besides that, I don’t draw animals a whole lot anymore, so that was a fun experience.

    I don’t time myself, but if I had to take a wild guess, it would probably be around… ten hours? I think? Maybe less, maybe more, but the sketch took a lot longer than usual, but the rendering was quick. Once I got past the sketch it was fun!

    However, I’m not sure I agree in regard to Tristan’s perspective on her behavior.

    I see your point, which means you essentially have an unreliable narrator. His perspective makes sense for him, but it’s very subjective and even distorts some events. That’s a good thing. It means he has a strong voice.

    But the audience doesn’t know that. The audience is going to take everything he says as gospel truth until proved otherwise. What really makes an unreliable narrator tick is the hints of truth that show through in the behavior of the other characters.

    So, in this case it might be a conversation between Maven and Tristan (for example) Maven might ask why he’s being so brusque/unfriendly/distant/etc.  to Delphine, to which Tristan can reply how annoying he finds her, how she’s constantly prying etc. And Maven might say how Tristan has been acting different and so on and so forth. You get my point.

    And maybe Delphine can get annoyed at Tristan, because he’s acting kind of unfairly toward her, from her point of view. She doesn’t know what he’s thinking or why he’s acting that way, so that would make them clash more. Basically, you need to present both sides of the argument and make the annoyance come from two sides.

    That isn’t to say Tristan is completely wrong, it’s very much a matter of perspective, and there’s fault on both sides.

    Then, because his eyes had been opened about his father, he was now supposed to decided to trust her and then care for her.

    He’d probably have a moment where he realizes what it was like for her and that he wasn’t entirely right. Probably apologies from both sides since Delphine wasn’t being considerate of his situation. Basically, you need a moment where they work it out, they can’t just ignore what happened.

    I hope I’m making sense, this is kind of hard to articulate.

    One’s a main character, one is a major side character. The MC one is more of a former Jew than a current Jew though.

    Man, that’s so cool! Did the MC convert? If they did, that’s a really, really interesting situation since that would be losing a huge part of their identity and probably some family members. It also depends on whether they converted to get away from the persecution or because they genuinely believe in Jesus. That’s a very cool situation with lots of potential for character arcs.

    Having multiple arcs stretch across multiple books is a whole new deal than just working with a stand alone book.

    I want to warn you about this, first of all. If you try to stretch a normal arc over many books, it’s going to feel stuck. I’ve never actually seen this executed well. It would mean the character is developing extremely slowly, and then the reader will get tired because it feels like nothing is changing.

    The way I handled this was by using one overarching theme and covering different facets of it.

    The main theme of Liorah’s arc is acceptance. The first book is acceptance by her family, the second book is accepting herself, and the third is acceptance by the tribe in general. There are some facets of each in the other books, but that’s the main one.

    However, in every book, she had a seperate lie that she overcame by the end and a seperate arc. Essentially, it was written like three standalones for character arc, though each formed the foundation for the last one.

    But especially if you have multiple narrators, you don’t need to have them all have an arc every book.

    I have a main character/narrator who is only a narrator in the second book and has a full arc there, but doesn’t feature at all in the first book and has a smaller role in the third book.

    And I have a character who was a side character in the first book, a non-narrating main character in the second book, and a narrator in the third. (He grew on me and he demanded a bigger role)

    However, all of them have Liorah as a main character and a narrator. This is inherently her story. It would completely fall apart if she wasn’t there.

    Of course, that’s just one approach. I’ve also seen it that there are multiple characters who have seperate arcs and seperate stories that eventually tie together.

    What I’m basically trying to say is don’t try to write the series like one extremely long book split up in sections. I’ve read that and it isn’t fun, it drags in sections and seems neverending.

    For plot structure, I wrote it similar to the arcs, three standalones which build upon each other.

    Essentially, that means that you’ll have a catalyst at the end of each book. Not a cliffhanger, but an opening. You end some arcs and parts but open others before they’re fully ended.

    So, your low point in the first book might be your catalyst for your second book. That doesn’t mean you don’t have a catalyst for the second book, that just means that the second catalyst builds off the one in the previous book.

    This is insanely hard to articulate, but basically, you have to open some arcs for the next book in your third act, while also ending most of the first ones. This will make more sense when you do it though XD

    From what I’ve found, having the ultimate end of the series, the climax of each book, and gist of the plot of each book planned out is necessary, but just how far do you take that? How much of the events of books 2-final did you have planned out when you started writing book 1?

    In all honesty, I wrote book 1 as a standalone. Halfway through I realized I wasn’t going to get everything wrapped up and decided to write two more.

    I had a very, very loose idea of the third book’s climax since I decided to make a trilogy, and as soon as I wrote the first book, I had a good idea of the middle of book 2 but no idea of what would happen in book 3.

    So short answer, you don’t need to know much. You need the big climax, the beginning, and what pushes them from each book into the next, and possibly what smaller goal they accomplish in each one. The rest is best left kind of free and open.

    You need to know what gets your characters from their first book self to their finale self. Those are going to be the middle books.

    In the first book, you’ll probably very briefly introduce some side characters, love interests, basically, everyone who isn’t a narrator. Every important character probably has something in their past or in their character that has potential to be explored. You can do that in the middle books.

    If TTD was a series, you could add subplots in the middle books about Piers and Rolant’s families, and Tumas’ past. Something along those lines. It’s a time to go deeper into the things you already set up.

    It annoys me to no end when we never find out new things about the side characters. They don’t need full arcs but it’s awesome when we see more of their backstory.

    There are some arcs that need more time than one book. Romance arcs and training arcs can easily take up an entire series, because they’re subplots and they work better when they get a lot of time.

    You need to have smaller goals to overcome in the middle books. If you have an evil empire plot, that could be taking down the henchmen of the big baddie, villains in their own right.

    The final book is bringing everyone together with everything they’ve learned and acccomplishing the big goal.

    I’m the kind of person who works best when I have a ton of time to brainstorm. Brainstorming is a tab I constantly leave open and every so often it spits something at me and I write it down. If I give it enough time, I can come up with the plot to an entire novel without actively sitting down and brainstorming, which I deeply detest since it’s frustrating and unproductive.

    I actually managed that with book 3. I kept all the ideas in the back of my mind and worked on it as I had time. By the time I had to outline, I had 80% of the book outlined and I just had to slot it into the right places in the structure. I have no idea how that happened but it was glorious. 

    I have no clue if that made sense, but I hope it did 🙂 Feel free to ask, I’ll do my best to answer.

    Annnd you got another essay you didn’t ask for XD You’d better get used to it, that always happens.

    I’ll keep going in the next post since this one is so long it’s starting to lag XD

    Without darkness, there is no light. If there was no nighttime, would the stars be as bright?

    #145406
    Rose
    @rose-colored-fancy

    @noah-cochran

    Now that is something I would like to hear more about. How much do you know about their cultures and differences? I would love to hear everything you know.

    To start with, I know less than you think, and that goes for everything XD

    But, there are a few things I stumbled on during research and/or know by association.

    First thing, language. This is actually facinating, to me at least, since I think languages are really cool.

    Jews all over in that period usually knew some Hebrew. The Torah, Talmud, and Mishna were all written in Hebrew and were mainly read in that language.

    (Torah is the actual old Testament, Talmud is commentary on the Torah, and Mishna is commentary on the Talmud and the oral law. However, they see all three as equally binding.)

    Besides that, interesting sub-languages started to take form. The first one I think of is Ladino, which is a mixture of Spanish and Hebrew that was spoken by Sephardic Jews.

    That’s also where Yiddish comes from, mainly based of High-German. Yiddish developed from the 9th century and Ladino from the Spanish inquisition.

    The cultural differences aren’t huge, but they would be noticeable.

    Here are two articles that may help you along:

    (In next posts)

    Oh, something else to research is what colors would have been worn. I have a dim recollection that Jews didn’t wear bright colors because of the mourning of Jerusalem. (same reason Ultra-Orthodox Jews wear black and white) I think you’ll be able to find something along those lines.

     had literally put down on my revising document during my first revision to add some dialogue between Joelle and Delphine, and I had even put down to probably have in, guess what, chapter 36. xD

    Great minds think alike XD

    One more question for ya (I apologize for the amount of time I’m stealing from you). What did medieval hats look like (for both men and women)? What about 12th century helmets for both wealthier knights, and lower down men-at-arms?

    Don’t worry!

    I actually have no idea for either of those, I don’t think I can help you there. I found an article for men, you should be able to find one for women fairly easily. (Mostly wimples and veils, the high hats were around the 15th century iirc)

    A Google search can get you a long way, just check their sources. The best sources are when they actually show the Medieval paintings and illuminations. Don’t trust Halloween costumes or anything on Amazon or just modern images. Go to the actual article and check their sources, and check the year and region.

    (Link to article in a next post so the SE gremlins don’t eat it.)

    Without darkness, there is no light. If there was no nighttime, would the stars be as bright?

    #145407
    Rose
    @rose-colored-fancy

    Sephardi-Ashkenazi 1

     

    Without darkness, there is no light. If there was no nighttime, would the stars be as bright?

    #145408
    Rose
    @rose-colored-fancy

    Sephardi-Ashkenazi 2

    Without darkness, there is no light. If there was no nighttime, would the stars be as bright?

    #145409
    Rose
    @rose-colored-fancy

    12th Century men’s headwear

    Without darkness, there is no light. If there was no nighttime, would the stars be as bright?

    #145437
    Noah Cochran
    @noah-cochran

    @rose-colored-fancy

    Aww, thank you! I’m really proud of it! I haven’t drawn a self-portrait since… elementary school and this is the first one I’m actually happy with.

    Well drat the luck. I mentally tossed a coin between you having blonde or light brown hair. I almost    went with blonde, but the dratted coin landed on hazel. My apologies for grievously mistaking your hair color.

    If I drew a self-portrait…you know what, we won’t talk about how that would turn out.

    So, in this case it might be a conversation between Maven and Tristan

    Basically, you need a moment where they work it out, they can’t just ignore what happened.

    Will do.

    Man, that’s so cool! Did the MC convert? If they did, that’s a really, really interesting situation since that would be losing a huge part of their identity and probably some family members.

    Not exactly. They’re more of a free-floater who believe in God, but they are sick of institutions, customs, and life in general (for reasons, this could change though, this is just my current thoughts on the character).

     You could however work on making Delphine stand on her own more. You may need to add more internal motivation for her to be there.

    So, between this and you mentioning me needing to give her a connection with her brother and feelings about that, I need to say something. I will try to do this somewhat, but trying to balance three MC’s with a lot of PoV time in a stand alone novel is already a large undertaking. So giving her too much might take away from the others and make the book feel bloated, but I do see your point. As far as her having a relationship with her brother Robert, I would like to point out that in a lot of noble family units sibling were far from on close terms. That is generalization of course, but a young Delphine may have had very little interaction with her brother. Either way could work, but I wouldn’t say that it’s unnatural for her not to have strong feelings for him or be close to him.

    It’s just hard to flesh out your side characters when the book is stand alone and already has three main characters. xD Writing a trilogy with one main character gives one slightly more breathing room I would think, that’s my excuse anyway. 🙂 I’ll try to flesh her thoughts and feelings out some though.

    I want to warn you about this, first of all. If you try to stretch a normal arc over many books, it’s going to feel stuck.

    Yeah, I totally agree. Thankfully, that’s not really what I meant, but thanks for pointing it out. It would be way to hard to go into everything that I’m planning, so suffice it to say that the central character in book one has a full arc in said book.

    So short answer, you don’t need to know much. You need the big climax, the beginning, and what pushes them from each book into the next, and possibly what smaller goal they accomplish in each one. The rest is best left kind of free and open.

    That’s good to hear, because I was really quite uncertain about how much to do, and was leaning in that direction.

     without actively sitting down and brainstorming, which I deeply detest since it’s frustrating and unproductive.

    I agree, but it’s often necessary if you want to speed the process up. I am able to have the main picture form in my head (like you mentioned for your third book), but the idea’s I come up with are why too complicated and nuanced for me to brainstorm the whole thing in my head in a passive way. It’s great that you were able to do that for book three though. Hopefully something like that will happen to me for the books after book one.

    To start with, I know less than you think, and that goes for everything

    Hey, I can treat you like a erudite woman of knowledge and wisdom if I want. 🙃

    Thanks for all the info on Jews, I appreciate it.

    Torah is the actual old Testament

    I believe the Torah is the first five books of the old testament not the entire old testament, right?

    I have a dim recollection that Jews didn’t wear bright colors because of the mourning of Jerusalem

    Hmm…are you sure? From what I could find, Jews mostly assimilated into their surroundings, wearing and dressing like the people around them. I know rabbis restricted some things some places, but other than that…I don’t know, I’ll look into it more.

    Don’t trust Halloween costumes or anything on Amazon or just modern images.

    *quickly stops browsing medieval halloween costumes*

    Of course not. No one would be that daft.

    😉

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