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Showing Internal Conflict

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  • #144533
    Emily Waldorf
    @emily-waldorf

    1200 ish words today. Twaddle, all. But now I can move on from that part. 🙂

    Don't cry for me, for I go where music is born ~J.S. Bach

    #144550
    Rose
    @rose-colored-fancy

    @emily-waldorf

    I’m guessing you meant to post in the NaNo thread but YAY that’s amazing!!! That’s a lot, the most you got yet!!! (I think XD) Sometimes you just gotta push past the hard bits.

    Without darkness, there is no light. If there was no nighttime, would the stars be as bright?

    #144555
    Noah Cochran
    @noah-cochran

    @emily-waldorf

    I just have to know how that comment ended up here. 😂


    @rose-colored-fancy

    Are people just that stupid?

    You know what Rose, I think they just are.

    though I’ve been getting faster and pushing it more toward 6 hours for portraits.

    I’m feeling suitably impressed…and relatively worthless seeing that I’m easily the worst drawer I know. 🙂

    That horse is my pride and joy and my greatest tribulation.

    Most things in life really are one big mess of juxtaposed feelings.

    History books are plentiful at our house too, my brother has an admirable collection. It’s great for research.

    Is your brother a writer or just a history lover?

    Sometimes I pity my friends because I talk so much when I feel comfortable. (I’ll bet you’ve noticed XD)

    I love it when people feel comfortable enough to do a lot of talking, keep it up (though being online, it’s not really the same thing). 🙂

    Oh, pets are the best to talk to. I have discussions with the horses often. The cats don’t care as much. How many cats do you have?

    Two outdoors cats. My sister runs a small cat business though, so we have three inside females, and two males in our garage. How about you?

    What’s the use of drawing if you can’t draw yourself as a cool knight every now and then?

    Exactly. I couldn’t have said it better myself. 😄

    #144559
    Emily Waldorf
    @emily-waldorf

    @noah-cochran and @rose-colored-fancy

    Well this is rather embarrassing…

    I guess I just posted on the thread that was on the top, without pausing to look at which thread it was. Tch tch tch. My brain sometimes!

    Don't cry for me, for I go where music is born ~J.S. Bach

    #144610
    Rose
    @rose-colored-fancy

    @noah-cochran

    You know what Rose, I think they just are.

    Based on previous evidence… yeah.

    I’m feeling suitably impressed…and relatively worthless seeing that I’m easily the worst drawer I know.

    I am also a terrible cabinet XD

    Most things in life really are one big mess of juxtaposed feelings.

    Doesn’t it make them better though? All sunshine and no rain makes a desert.

    Is your brother a writer or just a history lover?

    Just a history fan 🙂 He likes reading (we have similar tastes so that’s fun) but he’s great to go to with questions about history stuff. He also doesn’t get suspicious when I ask him how you’re supposed to plan an assassination. Yaknow, for plot reasons.

    I love it when people feel comfortable enough to do a lot of talking, keep it up (though being online, it’s not really the same thing).

    LOL, like I’d be able to stop XD It’s funny, I feel more like myself talking over the internet than talking in person. I like being able to edit my replies and think about them.

    Two outdoors cats. My sister runs a small cat business though, so we have three inside females, and two males in our garage. How about you?

    That’s awesome! Do you have a favorite? What are their names?

    We have two “outdoor” cats for vermin. (They come inside. They shouldn’t.) They’re brothers from the same litter, and they’re both large and affectionate. One is called Kex and he’s my spherical friend. He’s such a softhearted sweetheart. The other is called Bot and he’s a gremlin. We like him anyway.


    @emily-waldorf

    Well this is rather embarrassing…

    I guess I just posted on the thread that was on the top, without pausing to look at which thread it was. Tch tch tch. My brain sometimes!

    LOL, don’t worry about it! Happens to all of us XD

    Without darkness, there is no light. If there was no nighttime, would the stars be as bright?

    #144660
    Noah Cochran
    @noah-cochran

    @rose-colored-fancy

    I am also a terrible cabinet

    I’m lovin’ the sarcasm. 🙂

    So, I looked it up, and it appears some people actually do use the word “drawer” to describe someone who draws. However, the more proper term would be “illustrator” or something along those lines. So you’re right. 😏

    All sunshine and no rain makes a desert.

    That was so concise, and yet some how incredibly profound. Beautifully said.

    He also doesn’t get suspicious when I ask him how you’re supposed to plan an assassination. Yaknow, for plot reasons.

    😂 Exactly.

    I like being able to edit my replies and think about them.

    I do too, but because that’s not how real life works, I don’t let myself get too caught up in the internet mindset. If I could edit all the foolish things I’ve said throughout my life, that would be great. xD

    Do you have a favorite? What are their names?

    My two favorites are probably the two playing and laying all over me right now. xD Two, what we call “teenage kittens” named Fern and Clover. Fern was laying on my lap, but Clover kept attacking Fern’s tale, so now they’re having an all out battle beside me on the couch.

    The other is called Bot and he’s a gremlin. We like him anyway.

    Yeah, we’ve got an outdoor boy that goes throughout the surrounding neighborhoods and starts fights. So he’s usually quite ugly with all of his wounds. xD

    Hey, so, I just wanted to tell you that I’m lovin’ the comments you’ve left so far, but if I respond to all of them and the comments my other commentors start leaving soon, I’ll explode. xD In other words, if  I don’t respond to your comments, that doesn’t mean I’m not reading them. If any of your comments disappear (meaning I resolved them), that means I either took your advice and changed something, or I took note of the comment in another document for consideration or to compare to other betas’ advice.

    I just wanted to let you know that I am reading everything you say. I appreciate the amount of thought you’re giving it.

    #144661
    Rose
    @rose-colored-fancy

    @noah-cochran

    I’m lovin’ the sarcasm.

    So, I looked it up, and it appears some people actually do use the word “drawer” to describe someone who draws. However, the more proper term would be “illustrator” or something along those lines. So you’re right.

    Practically speaking, you’re correct, I just wanted to tease you because the opportunity was too perfect XD

    That was so concise, and yet some how incredibly profound. Beautifully said.

    It is! I read it somewhere and it stuck in my mind for that reason.

    I do too, but because that’s not how real life works, I don’t let myself get too caught up in the internet mindset. If I could edit all the foolish things I’ve said throughout my life, that would be great. xD

    You’re totally right, saying stupid things is a part of life XD (It would be a lot more boring without it)

    My two favorites are probably the two playing and laying all over me right now. xD Two, what we call “teenage kittens” named Fern and Clover. Fern was laying on my lap, but Clover kept attacking Fern’s tale, so now they’re having an all out battle beside me on the couch.

    Oh, goodness that’s adorable! I love the teenage kitten stage, that’s too cute.

    Yeah, we’ve got an outdoor boy that goes throughout the surrounding neighborhoods and starts fights. So he’s usually quite ugly with all of his wounds. xD

    Two of a kind, every so often he’ll show up with a new ‘battle scar’ and we know he was picking fights somewhere.

    Hey, so, I just wanted to tell you that I’m lovin’ the comments you’ve left so far, but if I respond to all of them and the comments my other commentors start leaving soon, I’ll explode. xD In other words, if  I don’t respond to your comments, that doesn’t mean I’m not reading them. If any of your comments disappear (meaning I resolved them), that means I either took your advice and changed something, or I took note of the comment in another document for consideration or to compare to other betas’ advice.

    I just wanted to let you know that I am reading everything you say. I appreciate the amount of thought you’re giving it.

    Absolutely no problem, that’s what I was counting on 🙂 I’m erring on the side of leaving too many but I really am trying to keep it concise.

    Sure, I’m having a lot of fun with it!

    I also wanted to tell you not to edit anything now. I know how incredibly tempting it is to just quickly fix something, but don’t. Wait for all the feedback, make notes of what you want to change, set up a plan for what you need to fix, then edit. Otherwise it’s too easy to get caught up in details.

    Just a bit of advice from someone who has often gotten caught up in details *sigh*

    Without darkness, there is no light. If there was no nighttime, would the stars be as bright?

    #144662
    Noah Cochran
    @noah-cochran

    @rose-colored-fancy

     I just wanted to tease you because the opportunity was too perfect

    Good call, opportunities like that mustn’t be passed up. 🙂

    Just a bit of advice from someone who has often gotten caught up in details *sigh*

    Sound advice, I’ll be taking it.

    So here’s one thing I would like to talk about. You mentioned backstory once or twice, and this is where I’m torn. I don’t like (and I know this is personal taste, and that the Hunger Games disagrees with this) a lot of telling backstory in introspection, especially early on in the book. To me, it feels unnatural for a character to immediately start thinking about their past as soon as the story begins. For instance, you commented on one of Hugon’s cynical comments saying that maybe some backstory should be added. The thing is, Hugon has been thinking and speaking that way for years, so for him to think about what caused him to have that belief doesn’t really make sense.

    Am I making any sense? xD I definitely be thinking on this, because I do see the need to grow connected to the character quickly. Aaaa…I’m torn.

    One other thing as a heads up. You mentioned me having several lines of consecutive beats and dialogue with no thought or description. Well…here’s the thing. That happens quite a lot in this book. xD I.e, I love dialogue. But I will keep that comment in mind whenever I go through and edit using y’all’s tips.

    #144667
    Rose
    @rose-colored-fancy

    @noah-cochran

    Am I making any sense? xD I definitely be thinking on this, because I do see the need to grow connected to the character quickly. Aaaa…I’m torn.

    I see what you mean, I’ve often thought about it too. It’s always a trade-off. Getting connected to the character vs. not bogging down the story.

    Personally, I didn’t like how Hunger Games did this. I was definitely tired of it before all the flashbacks were over. Suzanne Collins could do it because… well, she’s Suzanne Collins. She focused on connecting to the character so she could keep the rest of the book as fast-paced and streamlined.

    I wouldn’t recommend this, since it is a gamble.

    As for realism, this falls in the same category and characters speaking full sentences and not interrupting each other and going on tangents like people do in real conversations. It’s needed to make it readable and understandable, so the reader will suspend disbelief.

    What I meant was that you could add just a line or two after comments like that.

    So, the example I highlighted was:

    Hugon flinched at that. Bad memories lay there.

    You could add something like:

    He still remembered the face of the merchant who had taken everything they had. He’d never be able to forget it.

    (I have no idea what happened, this was a wild guess, so it probably isn’t accurate.)

    Basically, things will remind him of things that happened in the past and that gives you an opportunity to slip in a line here or there. Not a massive paragraph at a time, just a line, a mention. In the beginning, it’s fine to leave his past a blur, just not a white nothingness.

    Also, you need a certain amount of knowledge to get the story started. Don’t reveal anything until it’s absolutely needed or you have a slow moment/an alternate reason, but don’t hold back important things.

    It’s not necessarily a huge issue, just something to think about 🙂

    You mentioned me having several lines of consecutive beats and dialogue with no thought or description. Well…here’s the thing. That happens quite a lot in this book. xD I.e, I love dialogue. But I will keep that comment in mind whenever I go through and edit using y’all’s tips.

    Dialogue is cool! Dialogue is fantastic, I love it, but what I meant was breaking it up with beats. Just little things like expressions and small actions to make it flow better. Often the character’s reactions are more interesting than the conversation itself.

    Uninterrupted dialogue sometimes flows better than the alternative, you just have to try out which works best.

    Dialogue, description, introspection, etc, all gets boring if you’re doing it paragraphs at a time.

    Once again, not a massive issue, just something to keep in mind while editing. Most of the stuff I’m pointing out won’t ruin your book, but they’re worth keeping in mind.

     

     

    Without darkness, there is no light. If there was no nighttime, would the stars be as bright?

    #144671
    Noah Cochran
    @noah-cochran

    @rose-colored-fancy

    Basically, things will remind him of things that happened in the past and that gives you an opportunity to slip in a line here or there. Not a massive paragraph at a time, just a line, a mention. In the beginning, it’s fine to leave his past a blur, just not a white nothingness.

    Okay, from the example, I think I have a better grasp on what you’re saying, I’ll definitely be keeping that in mind (*proceeds to go make “tips from Rose” section in my revision document*).

    Dialogue is fantastic, I love it, but what I meant was breaking it up with beats.

    I didn’t realize you were referring to beats. I shall remember to add more beats.

    Okay, a couple things that I wanted to talk with you about here instead of in the GD comments. First, you mentioned longswords a couple times. From what I could find, your typical longsword didn’t come about until the end of the high middle ages and beginning of the late middle ages. TTD takes place in 1223, and Tristan is the son of a minor castellan, so I didn’t think he would have a full-fledged, longsword. Instead, I thought he would have a shorter, one-handed (though it could be used two-handed) sword. Thoughts?

    Secondly, you mentioned italicized thought. As a whole, I prefer non-italicized that is in past tense (usually known as Indirect Introspection), vs direct thought/introspect, that does us italicized text. However, once in a while I wanted to have introspection that used the word “I” and “you” to refer to the person having the thoughts. I can’t do that with indirect thought, so I italicized the places I wanted it. Does that make sense? Does the italicized thought still seem to be a bad idea?

    #144672
    Rose
    @rose-colored-fancy

    @noah-cochran

    I didn’t realize you were referring to beats. I shall remember to add more beats.

    Generally speaking, you’re okay, it was mostly that specific section.

    TTD takes place in 1223, and Tristan is the son of a minor castellan, so I didn’t think he would have a full-fledged, longsword. Instead, I thought he would have a shorter, one-handed (though it could be used two-handed) sword. Thoughts?

    I have proved my ignorance. I forgot to check that XD On a second check, Meyer and Lichtenauer’s manuals weren’t written until c. 1570 and c. 1500  respectively. (The German manuals we mainly use for longsword) In short, you’re right, I should have taken that into consideration.

    Still, I’m going to keep critiquing your sword-scenes the same way. Most of it isn’t longsword specific, as far as I know. If something seems off to you, please double-check me. I’m just speaking from what makes sense to me, and I have no experience with one-handed swords.

    (Also, check if it was used in rapier style or with a buckler, because it’s a common mistake but I don’t know enough about this to say whether you’re right or wrong XD)

    However, once in a while I wanted to have introspection that used the word “I” and “you” to refer to the person having the thoughts. I can’t do that with indirect thought, so I italicized the places I wanted it. Does that make sense? Does the italicized thought still seem to be a bad idea?

    As I’m reading it, it mostly seems out of place. I didn’t notice the difference between direct and indirect. Is there a specific reason you’re using direct introspection instead? I don’t remember ever noticing the difference, but I mainly write in first-person, so I may not be familiar with it.

    Also, I want to compliment you on the book so far! I’m really enjoying it and I got completely sucked in. (to the point that I almost burned something on the stove because I forgot)

    Without darkness, there is no light. If there was no nighttime, would the stars be as bright?

    #144739
    Noah Cochran
    @noah-cochran

    @rose-colored-fancy

    Still, I’m going to keep critiquing your sword-scenes the same way. Most of it isn’t longsword specific, as far as I know. If something seems off to you, please double-check me. I’m just speaking from what makes sense to me, and I have no experience with one-handed swords.

    Oh, please do. You’re vastly above my level when it comes to combat, and swords in particular it seems. 🙂

    Can’t one handed-swords be used with both hands (that’s what Tristan did)? Excuse my ignorance.

    As I’m reading it, it mostly seems out of place. I didn’t notice the difference between direct and indirect. Is there a specific reason you’re using direct introspection instead? I don’t remember ever noticing the difference, but I mainly write in first-person, so I may not be familiar with it.

    Let me clarify: I’m using indirect introspection 99% of the time. Indirect introspection is when one does not use italics or the tag “he/she/I thought.” Direct introspection is when one uses italicized thought and sometimes a dialogue tag of he/I/she thought (often times not though, I don’t). The reason I use direct introspection was so I could use the style of “I am sick and tired of this mess, why did this have to happen to me.”  I used “I” and “me,” which I could not do in my normal indirect introspection. You probably already knew I was saying this, but I just wanted to make sure you understood what I was saying. xD

    I use that style once in a while because I like the feel of a more in their head type of writing once in a while. But I will definitely consider removing it if you think it noticeably breaks up the flow. One of my other betas is somewhat of a hater of italicized words or introspection, so I already know some thinks the same as you. xD Do you ever used italicized words in writing for any purpose?

    Also, I want to compliment you on the book so far! I’m really enjoying it and I got completely sucked in. (to the point that I almost burned something on the stove because I forgot

    I really appreciate that, Rose. 🙂

    *proceeds to check off “make a reader burn something on the oven” off my bucket list*

    Do you have any thoughts on the clothing and apparel descriptions so far? Do they seem accurate? Is there something you would do differently?

    #144748
    Rose
    @rose-colored-fancy

    @noah-cochran

    Oh, please do. You’re vastly above my level when it comes to combat, and swords in particular it seems.

    Thanks, I was surprised how easy and fun it was to see how it would and wouldn’t work. (I probably enjoyed analyzing those scenes the most) I didn’t think I’d be able to yet, but apparently basic knowledge goes pretty far.

    Can’t one handed-swords be used with both hands (that’s what Tristan did)? Excuse my ignorance.

    Excuse mine, I have no idea XD I can possibly ask around, but your research may be faster. Is he using an arming sword, a sidesword, or something else?

    I use that style once in a while because I like the feel of a more in their head type of writing once in a while. But I will definitely consider removing it if you think it noticeably breaks up the flow. One of my other betas is somewhat of a hater of italicized words or introspection, so I already know some thinks the same as you. xD

    Personally, I’m not a fan. I’d say consistency is more important than the slightly closer phsycic distance. Once again, completely up to you, but my vote is against it.

    Do you ever used italicized words in writing for any purpose?

    Sometimes! Usually for emphasis in dialogue or sometimes to indicate sarcasm. (The same way I often do in these posts, the way you’d emphasise a word while speaking.) One other exception, I also use them for dreams or when a character is remembering a direct quote from someone else, to distinguish it from being said at that moment.

    I really appreciate that, Rose.

    *proceeds to check off “make a reader burn something on the oven” off my bucket list*

    LOL, every writer should have that on their bucket list XD

    Do you have any thoughts on the clothing and apparel descriptions so far? Do they seem accurate? Is there something you would do differently?

    I’m glad you asked, I was going to leave you a comment about it at the end of the book. (I didn’t want to constantly comment on it.)

    It seems accurate, your use of the word ‘gown’ works well, but on a more technical note, your descriptions are rather too detailed.

    I’m going to do my best to articulate what I mean and drag in examples.

    So, let’s compare these two descriptions:

    Tristan removed his belt and Claude helped him slip the chainmail over his tunic, and then handed him his surcoat. His surcoat was divided into four sections, blue in two of the opposite corners, and black in the other two. Not bad for a family of their status. Slipping it on, he put on his belt, and made his way to the battlements.

     

    He was dressed in a bright blue tunic with intricate yellow lacing crawling across the waist and fringes. The only reason Tristan even registered the outfit was the sharp contrast it created with his pale, weary face.

    (That’s just the first example I could grab, but it serves fine)

    The first one is noticably better than the last. The actual description is short and to the point. I get an instant clear image but you don’t keep detailing it.

    The latter has an issue you tend to repeat a lot. Too much detail. I completely skimmed the description because I couldn’t immidiately see what you meant. The only thing I registered was “yellow and blue tunic, he looks pale” Generally, less is more when it comes to describing clothing.

    I’m trying to think of a way to explain it other than “just write the vibes and ignore the details”. If you get the feeling across, the details are irrelevant.

    So, I’d rewrite the latter as:

    His bright blue and yellow tunic contrasted his pale weary face.

    That’s it. You get the same feeling across, the rest is irrelevant. And, you don’t need to describe every time someone changes clothes. Just give a first description to tell us if they generally dress richly or simply, or how much care they take, and then only describe if it’s unusual.

    I’m going to pull up an example from my WIP because it’s the only way I can explain this.

    I felt prim and gawky in the formal clothes, like the yearling foals that seemed in constant danger of tripping over their own too-long legs. Even the wide sash and full skirt of my white outer dress couldn’t create the illusion of a figure. The blue embroidery on the white outer dress made my shoulders look ungracefully broad. Not that it mattered.

    I could have gone on about what the embroidery looked like, exactly where it was, what color it was, what color her underdress was, what shoes she wore, so on and so forth.

    This is a formal outfit and a formal occasion, so she’s paying more attention to her clothes than usual, so this is the most detailed description of clothing in the book, but even this I kept down to two sentences. And notice how instead of describing the clothing neutrally, she’s giving lots and lots of opinions. (It’s Liorah, she always gives opinions.)

    My main point of this scene was showing that she dreaded the occasion because she felt awkward and out of place, and the way she talks about her dress reflects that.

    I’m actually struggling to find examples, I don’t think I describe clothes more than a handful of times.

    If you do want to add details to show how rich something is, again, keep it short.

    He raked his hand through his hair, then straightened the loose sleeves of his coat again, for what might have been the hundredth time. The pattern of beaded pomegranates and golden vines twined across the deep red wool.

    That’s the full description, actually. You get the image without going into detail.

    Less is more, focus on the feeling you’re trying to show with it, and this is one time where you can get away with telling. Sometimes telling is better than showing. Just your point across as briefly and economically as possible.

    *Notices how long this is* LOL, every time you ask me a simple question you get an essay. I get excited and carried away XD I hope you got what I mean!

    Last note on accuracy, it seems fairly good to me, but check your colors. It seems okay to me, but it’s easy to get wrong. Natural dyes in the medieval period is a whole new rabbit hole though XD Not necessarily wrong, just something to pay attention to.

    Without darkness, there is no light. If there was no nighttime, would the stars be as bright?

    #144753
    Erynne
    @erynne

    @Noah-Cochran

    Hi.

    I’m leaving but I must tell you that you need to catch or on our other thread. I’ve since become President and I answered your question on predestination. I saw you turned your notifications off which was a TERRIBLE move man

    😉

    Adiós dude

    Be weird. Be random. Be who you are. Because you ever know who would love the person you hide.

    #144759
    Rose
    @rose-colored-fancy

    @erynne

    *Chases you out with a broom* (jk, I always like seeing you 🙂 )


    @noah-cochran

    I was chatting with Cathy and I was gushing about how much I was enjoying your manuscript and she mentioned she hadn’t got it yet. Is that an oversight or are you planning to ask her for a later round of revisions?

    And when I say I was gushing about it that wasn’t an exaggeration. I just excitedly and confusedly narrated the plot to my family while flapping my cloak like a hyperactive bat. (Yes, I was wearing a cloak in the house. It’s winter. I was cold.) That plot twist in the second part though!!!

    Without darkness, there is no light. If there was no nighttime, would the stars be as bright?

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