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Do you happen to have a step by step process for step publishing type up somewhere that you could share with me?
*barges in* I DO. *cough* I mean… I do. I wrote a whole blog series on self-publishing, actually. Assuming SE doesn’t eat the link… you can find the first post here.
So to get it straight, how many times do you revise/second draft your books?
Hi sorry I’m totally butting in feel free to ignore me or tell me if it’s annoyingMy most recent novel has gone through… *squints* Nine drafts so far? And I have two to go? So… yeah. 11-ish. My other books will probably take longer. Some of them in particular. It depends on the book. My short stories only got revised once or twice. I have one short story that went through about four drafts, but that’s pretty much the max on a short story for me. The minimum for a novel, in my experience, is about 3-4? But that’s looking at novels that I never actually finished and published, so… I’d recommend expecting more than that.
Iâve been writing for a grand total of 4 months. xD I literally knew almost nothing about writing until June last summer, and in June and July I did my research on writing and storycraft, and started practice writing sessions. I officially started writing, by starting my outline and first draft of my current WIP at the end of July.
Really? That’s cool!
Are you aiming for a particular timeline with your project?
Speculative fiction author. Mythology nerd. Worldbuilding enthusiast. Singer. Fan of classic literature.
Feel free to barge in anytime. đ
I will most definitely be checking that link out, thanks for sharing. đ
Nine drafts? Yikes, you must be quite the perfectionist. xD By drafts I assume you mean editing runthroughs? Or do you mean actually re-writing/recasting each chapter? Even 5 drafts seems like a lot to me. xD
You’re welcome! I hope it helps. đ
Editing run-throughs, though many of my drafts thus far have involved adding and/or changing scenes. My first draft was just to get it written (duh). My second draft was restructuring things so that my plot worked (that one had the most rewriting). Then I had a draft focusing on my main character’s arc and voice, a draft focusing on some more minor characters, a draft focusing on two secondary characters’ arcs and voices, a draft focusing on worldbuilding… At some point I got feedback from my alpha-readers and applied that. When I had done pretty much all I could do on my own, I sent it to beta-readers and applied their feedback (this draft probably led to the most rewriting/adding besides the initial rewrite). OH! There was also an added draft for this book when I sent it to sensitivity readers who could specifically give me feedback on the portrayal of chronic illness. But yeah. All of those get me to nine, and now I’m reading through it in print and making more notes while it’s also with a professional editor who’s doing line-edits and will then do proofreads once I’ve applied her line-editing feedback.
I don’t think it’s that I’m a perfectionist; that’s just how many drafts it’s taken this particular book to be ready. It takes a while to get a book all the way from a first draft to publication-ready. This one has taken me about two years, start to almost-finish. Now, if I were to continue nitpicking every little detail after I’ve finished these last two drafts, that would be perfectionismâI’m aware there is a point where editing ceases to improve the story and just changes things for no real benefitâbut I haven’t reached that point yet.
Speculative fiction author. Mythology nerd. Worldbuilding enthusiast. Singer. Fan of classic literature.
Oik! Iâm late again! OH HEEEY @R-M-ARCHER!!!đđđ *am totally subscribe can never have too much writing/publishing tips!!!đ„°*
Okay, youâve piqued my attention. What has your research shown? Do you happen to have a step by step process for step publishing type up somewhere that you could share with me? Or is it all in your head? xD If you ever have the time, I would love to hear all the tips on marketing a self-published book you could give me. Iâm planning to do my own in depth dive this winter after I finish my first draft of my novel, but I never pass up wells of information such as yourself if I can help it. So if you ever have the time, Iâd welcome anything and everything you could give me.
Alright! I actually have a ton of email-marketing resources right here that I can email you? đ And the âKindlepreneurâ blogs tend to have good advice for Kindle and Amazon marketing.
My biggest takeaway would probably be tho that there isnât any hard rule that works every time, so just âdo your research, know what youâre doing, seize opportunities and adapt with the feedback.â I learned pretty quick for example how to give a quick âelevator pitchâ summary of my WIP to anybody who asked (one sentence long; make it as brief as you can and as clear as you can thereâs a thick science to it but you can always change and adapt from peoplesâ responses) and if this was somebody I knewâat least later in the process Iâd just kinda follow up with a âhey Iâm writing two chapters a month finished on 7th and 21th, you wanna beta read?â and invariably everyone Iâve asked like that has said yes (and Iâm still doing that if ya want?). But I had already kinda build a connection in the conversation and made a good impression, plus I was gauging interests and all.
So that made a first step, but not much long-term engagement and actions. Encouraging small actions makes for more âconversionsâ: viewers to buyers, casual readers to hardcore fans etc. My next step is probably going to be designing a visually appealing newsletter that has plenty of links and buttons and small-scale ârewardsâ for actions to make it as dynamic and engaging as possible which encourages conversions. Iâd decided to wait until I knew I had ten+ people interested before I launch a newsletter but it legally counts as âwork experienceâ on a resume for graphic design which is my upcoming study so if the pieces pull together Iâll probably have a newsletter once I pull Ehud and Rosy out of the Character Castle (I was doing them for fun but Ehudâs been in that castle for over a year now and perked a small fanbase so Iâm gonna roll with that for now).
The idea there would be to get feedback, establish a loose fan profiling like my target audience for Ehudâs story is Christian MG to YA depending on how the actual writing goes probably around the False Princeâs intensity. Special appealing perks would be historical integration and analysis (@rusted-knightâs specialization) which would appeal to history buffs, neurological disorders such as amnesia, ADHD and sociopathic tendencies like anger management and antisocial which would appeal to âŠuh, people-people? Eh yaâknow the people interesting in diverse casting!
*Aaaaaaand where was I going with this I know I had pointâŠ*
*shrug* I guess just study and be an opportunist is my biggest advice! And I do have lottsa research particularly for email-marketing on-hand if ya want! đSo to get it straight, how many times do you revise/second draft your books?
LOL for thisâmyfirstâbook, oogles! But I revised three or four times I guess but Iâve not second drafted through my entire book luckily; my farthest re-draft was *goes back to check* 25 chapters 112 pages and thatâs not even a quarter of the plot in the first part of the book *dang is it really looking to be that longâŠ.??* Iâve done that twice and then found myself running down a plot-bunny and started over but keeping the major scenes. Now Iâve really honed in on the writing âon the flyâ writing mini-plots on StoryEmbers that get posted as I write and with my drafts too so that Iâm much much better at improvising and staying focused on the meat of the story. So this is my second or third re-drafting and Iâm at chapter 14 pages 69 and I know all the mini-climaxes and bullet points Iâm building up to so Iâve got a great feeling about this one and itâll be the last one.
So thatâs about 3-4 revisions/2-3 redrafts đIâve been writing for a grand total of 4 months. xD I literally knew almost nothing about writing until June last summer, and in June and July I did my research on writing and storycraft, and started practice writing sessions. I officially started writing, by starting my outline and first draft of my current WIP at the end of July.
Oh sounds like youâve got yourself a game-plan here!đ Canât wait to read your book when itâs done! đ
The False Prince is a great book, what of my favorite YA books Iâve ever read.
YES!!! I LOVED that book!!!! The MC was just such a dynamic, fun character and the situation was so engaging and exciting!!! Right now Iâm on the Runaway King and I got my little brother hooked on it and heâs already to the Shadow Throne I canât wait to see what happens to these guys Iâm so glad rose-colored-fancy got me hooked on it lol!!!
To be a light to the world you must shine in the darkness.
Thanks for the info Cathy! đ
I actually have a ton of email-marketing resources right here that I can email you?
If you’re willing, I would love for you to post those resources in this document. That should allow you to edit the document so you can post the links.
and Iâm still doing that if ya want?
Sure, as long as I’m not crazy busy or something, I should be able to beta read for you sometime, just give me the link to the document(s) when you’re ready. Btw, do you use google docs to write?
I might be searching for beta readers myself sometime, so I might come back to this topic eventually. đ
Hello, I’m interrupting real quick XD
I might be searching for beta readers myself sometime, so I might come back to this topic eventually.
PLEASE let me know. I’d love to beta read “Thief’s Dilemma”! Medieval France, a heist, one of the MC’s is sassy, it sounds right up my alley. Everything I’ve heard about it sounds fantastic.
Without darkness, there is no light. If there was no nighttime, would the stars be as bright?
Thanks for the info Cathy!
Absolutely! Of course this means you have to keep me posted when you find something too đ
If youâre willing, I would love for you to post those resources in this document. That should allow you to edit the document so you can post the links.
Oh my gosh itâs so cute and organized and tidy!!! *glances at two drawers chalked full of chaotic notes scribbled on every available and unavailable scrap of paper on random sticky notes, cards, used notebooks (writing over pencil in pen) and a couple smudged erasable markersâ notesâŠ*
Alrighty! *cracks knuckles dramatically* It may take a couple days to get all of it on but Iâll post links probably daily!!!Sure, as long as Iâm not crazy busy or something, I should be able to beta read for you sometime, just give me the link to the document(s) when youâre ready. Btw, do you use google docs to write? I might be searching for beta readers myself sometime, so I might come back to this topic eventually.
Ok! OhâŠI forgotâŠIn light of the magic-system discussion post you should probably know that book uses both a magic system and a fantasy system. The magic system is based of concepts from nihilism and New Age philosophy to demonstrate their Satanic nature and is used by the villains and drives the sociological and political structure of the plot. But I know you mentioned in the discussion post you didnât agree with portraying too many supernatural elements in literature so I donât know if thatâs something youâd be comfortable readingâŠ? Iâm sorry I didnât mention it before I meant to but then I forgot XDD.
If youâre good with trying it I usually email it in a pdf format but I bet with my new Convertkit account I can post chapters on my landing page and then send you a link. But if you donât want to beta read that, some time in December Iâm planning to launch my first newsletter for that webtoon Iâm working on with my brother which has no magic system (although it does still have a fantasy system)?
I am not supposed to use GoogleDocs đ(I asked my parents they said no) but I think I can do WordDocsâŠsomewhat. I know Google docs are very popular and pdfs are completely offline so they donât do links well.
Ooooh I volunteer for beta reading!!! (*haha, I have @rose-colored-fancyâs first chapter!!!đ*)To be a light to the world you must shine in the darkness.
I really appreciate your interest Rose. đ
I finished my first draft yesterday, and after taking a small break, I plan to do my first round of editing. I hope to be done with that first revision around Christmas break, and that’s when I will have my first round of betas read the book, so if you’re still interested by then, I’ll gladly take your offer. đ
It may take a couple days to get all of it on but Iâll post links probably daily!!!
I’m looking forward to it. đ
The magic system is based of concepts from nihilism and New Age philosophy to demonstrate their Satanic nature and is used by the villains and drives the sociological and political structure of the plot.
Hmm…so it’s just the villain dabbling in the supernaturalish stuff? If that’s all it is, I’m probably still up for it, mostly because it’s you and I would like to see what exactly you mean by magic system.
I am not supposed to use GoogleDocs
So would you rather not use that book marketing google doc I sent you then?
Try this link if you would for me, Cathy. It’s a link to a pdf I downloaded, I just wanted to see if it was possible for you to send me pdfs directly through SE. We’ll see about the email thing, I would like to try this first for now though.
Ooooh I volunteer for beta reading!!!
I appreciate it, you’re officially on my list. đ
haha, I have @rose-colored-fancyâs first chapter!!
If you would ever like a beta reader Rose, you sold me on your WIP long ago. đ
I finished my first draft yesterday, and after taking a small break, I plan to do my first round of editing.
YAY!!! Go you!! That’s fantastic, congratulations on finishing your first draft!! Most people don’t manage to draft a book in a lifetime and you did it in like three months!! Great job!!
I hope to be done with that first revision around Christmas break, and thatâs when I will have my first round of betas read the book, so if youâre still interested by then, Iâll gladly take your offer.
That’s perfect timing! Unless something pops up, that’ll work! Don’t worry about making it perfect, I’m happy reading a pretty rough draft! (As long as there aren’t TOO many typos XD)
If you would ever like a beta reader Rose, you sold me on your WIP long ago.
Awesome! I’ll keep it in mind! I have a couple more revisions left, so it won’t be anytime soon, but I’ll remember!
Also, Google Docs is perfect! It’s easy to write notes on!
Without darkness, there is no light. If there was no nighttime, would the stars be as bright?
Iâm looking forward to it.
Alrighty!
HmmâŠso itâs just the villain dabbling in the supernaturalish stuff? If thatâs all it is, Iâm probably still up for it, mostly because itâs you and I would like to see what exactly you mean by magic system.
*magic very clearly shown to be evil anyone using magic is a villain at the time excluding where there was a lack of knowing consent/trickery involved, there is reference to miraculous occurrences but theyâre left very open to this could be âlogically explainedâ/this could be a miracle itâs up to the reader* Yeah, magic is used solely by the villains.đ
Honestly Iâm very excited to hear your opinion on how I used the magic system đSo would you rather not use that book marketing google doc I sent you then? Try this link if you would for me, Cathy. Itâs a link to a pdf I downloaded, I just wanted to see if it was possible for you to send me pdfs directly through SE. Weâll see about the email thing, I would like to try this first for now though.
Ok! Lemmie try it *seconds later* ARGH!!!!! GIVE! ME! IT! YOU TRANSISTORIZED TORMENTOR!!!! Dangit! I couldnât even get the stupid page to come up thatâs awfulđâŠI think I can get a reasonable number of the links on SE directly but thereâs also a lot of pdf files that donât use linksâŠSo I could try to do that and weâll figure out the pdfs when we get there?
I appreciate it, youâre officially on my list.
Yes! *pumps fist*
If you would ever like a beta reader Rose, you sold me on your WIP long ago.
(Haha, I made a deal: an episode of my script for a chapter of her story to get her to let me beta readâŠđ)
YAY!!! Go you!! Thatâs fantastic, congratulations on finishing your first draft!! Most people donât manage to draft a book in a lifetime and you did it in like three months!! Great job!!
Waitwait. Three. Months? DraftedâŠthreeâŠWHAT!?! HE FINISHED HIS FIRST DRAFT IN THREE MONTHS????? YOU FINISHED YOUR FIRST DRAFT IN THREE MONTHS NOAH?????
DangâŠ*is very impressed but determined to find some quip instead of a compliment* Shoot! Thatâs actually pretty epic!!!To be a light to the world you must shine in the darkness.
Waitwait. Three. Months? DraftedâŠthreeâŠWHAT!?! HE FINISHED HIS FIRST DRAFT IN THREE MONTHS????? YOU FINISHED YOUR FIRST DRAFT IN THREE MONTHS NOAH?????
DangâŠ*is very impressed but determined to find some quip instead of a compliment* Shoot! Thatâs actually pretty epic!!!Wait till you hear this! It isn’t just a novel-length book like mine, it’s at least 150k words long!!! That’s twice as long as my manuscript and took half the time! I still barely believe it but I’m extremely impressed!
(Haha, I made a deal: an episode of my script for a chapter of her story to get her to let me beta read⊠)
(You say that as if I didn’t literally beg to read your script XD)
Also, the script is awesome and I love it and I can’t wait to read more of it, and @noah-cochran I want to highly recommend Cathy as a beta-reader/critique partner. She’s fantastic (and so is her writing! Her characters are incredibly endearing and deep and all of is just so fun.) Her observations are clear, well-thought out, honest without being harsh, and her advice is brilliant. All of it comes down to “Man, that’s so obviously correct I’m embarrassed I didn’t see it before.”
Also she has exceptional insight into characters and plot. Every observation she’s made about my characters is so accurate I’m constantly amazed.
*Is satisfied that I’ve successfully embarrassed my friend*
Without darkness, there is no light. If there was no nighttime, would the stars be as bright?
YAY!!! Go you!! Thatâs fantastic, congratulations on finishing your first draft!! Most people donât manage to draft a book in a lifetime and you did it in like three months!! Great job!!
I appreciate it. đ
As long as there arenât TOO many typos
That’s why I’m doing the quick polish, hopefully that will make it readable. xD
Also, Google Docs is perfect! Itâs easy to write notes on!
Is that what you use to write? Or do you have scrivner?
Wait till you hear this! It isnât just a novel-length book like mine, itâs at least 150k words long!!! Thatâs twice as long as my manuscript and took half the time! I still barely believe it but Iâm extremely impressed!
Rose, really now, if you wrote three hours a day at your speed, you could write 150k in a month. đ
Also, the script is awesome and I love it and I canât wait to read more of it, and @noah-cochran I want to highly recommend Cathy as a beta-reader/critique partner. Sheâs fantastic (and so is her writing! Her characters are incredibly endearing and deep and all of is just so fun.) Her observations are clear, well-thought out, honest without being harsh, and her advice is brilliant. All of it comes down to âMan, thatâs so obviously correct Iâm embarrassed I didnât see it before.â Also she has exceptional insight into characters and plot. Every observation sheâs made about my characters is so accurate Iâm constantly amazed.
Well Cathy, I have been successfully hyped by Rose. đ I’m looking forward to your insights.
*magic very clearly shown to be evil anyone using magic is a villain at the time excluding where there was a lack of knowing consent/trickery involved, there is reference to miraculous occurrences but theyâre left very open to this could be âlogically explainedâ/this could be a miracle itâs up to the reader* Yeah, magic is used solely by the villains.đ
Honestly Iâm very excited to hear your opinion on how I used the magic system đOkay, I’m up for it then. đ
So I could try to do that and weâll figure out the pdfs when we get there?
Sounds good. Also, I was being an idiot, pdf’s are only going to open on the computer they are downloaded on. xD
Waitwait. Three. Months? DraftedâŠthreeâŠWHAT!?! HE FINISHED HIS FIRST DRAFT IN THREE MONTHS????? YOU FINISHED YOUR FIRST DRAFT IN THREE MONTHS NOAH?????
A three month first draft isn’t that hard if you have enough time. xD It definitely got harder once school and college started though. The worst part about it is that my writing speed is around 800 words an hour on average (less than that at 6:00 in the morning) and that means the amount of hours I had to put in was exorbitantly large.
Thatâs why Iâm doing the quick polish, hopefully that will make it readable. xD
I think you’ll be surprised at how decent it already is! Whenever I think “Well, this is two thousand words of trash but I’m leaving this problem for future me” and I reread it later I always wonder why I hated it because it’s pretty decent! I’m sure it’ll work out! (Plus, rereading and polishing is always fun đ )
Is that what you use to write? Or do you have scrivner?
I have Scrivener, I got it as a gift last year. I absolutely love it and I’m never going back, but I have used Google Docs sometimes, when I need to send excerpts of writing around. I like it as far as I know it!
Rose, really now, if you wrote three hours a day at your speed, you could write 150k in a month.
Theoretically! I use up all my self-dicipline on schoolwork and don’t have much left when it comes to stuff I actually enjoy XD So, practically, there is no way I could write that much XD Though, I do want to try to draft my next book in 2-3 months. (I have no idea if that will actually work because my current tempo isn’t sustainable, but I’d like to try)
A three month first draft isnât that hard if you have enough time. xD It definitely got harder once school and college started though. The worst part about it is that my writing speed is around 800 words an hour on average (less than that at 6:00 in the morning) and that means the amount of hours I had to put in was exorbitantly large.
Okay, extreme respect for that much dedication!
Also, I’m really excited about reading Thief’s Dilemma! đ
Without darkness, there is no light. If there was no nighttime, would the stars be as bright?
I think youâll be surprised at how decent it already is! Whenever I think âWell, this is two thousand words of trash but Iâm leaving this problem for future meâ and I reread it later I always wonder why I hated it because itâs pretty decent!
Let’s hope. đ
Though, I do want to try to draft my next book in 2-3 months.
Go for it. I don’t know how long you’re wanting each novel, but with your speed, it won’t be that difficult.
Also, Iâm really excited about reading Thiefâs Dilemma!
*is feeling encouraged
I appreciate your interest. đ
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