"Poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese."

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  • #40956
    Northerner
    @northerner

      @Sarah-narnathron thank you for the lovely comment!

      The acting thing is mostly because a profession which involves, not to put too fine a point on it, people pretending to be other people, the most successful being those who are best at deception, is kind of. . . off, somehow? And, yeah, you can point to how the kinds of people who hand around theatres are not usually the best. I’m not as vehemently opposed as a lot of people in my general circles are (the stereotypical Baptist eschewing dancing, drinking, face cards, and the theatre; but I do medieval dancing, play cribbage with face cards, and am not old enough to have a useful opinion about drinking), but not exactly interested in trying my hand at it either.

      *stares suspiciously at the hiatus notice* Unless I’ve accidentally time-travelled, which would be slightly unsettling, isn’t that a bit out of date?

      #40958
      The Inkspiller
      @the-inkspiller

      @Northerner, In response to your query as regards my Chesterton anthology – it is the Dover Reader, containing The Man Who Was Thursday (unread), The Club of Queer Trades (unread), six of the Father Brown stories (Working on The Salad of Colonel Cray), and several essays including Orthodoxy, A Piece of Chalk, and Cheese.

      I recently finished Cheese, and I don’t think I have yet fully appreciated Chesterton’s genius. He is at once ridiculous and yet immensely thoughtful, filled with veiled barbs towards the most innocuous things and yet endearingly gentle in all his speech, never mocking yet always playing. With the most seemingly mundane of subjects, mere cheese, he has somehow reopened my mind to the beauty of individual culture and the uniqueness of human experience in an age where we are all reduced to statistics, copies, numbers, lines of text and brief notes in our digital existence.
      I must re-read it at once.

      As a compliment to you, I can very clearly see the influence of his writing style on your own. When you take the time, it would seem you always convey yourself at once formally and yet light-heartedly, with an authentically English eloquence.

      If I may ask, what medieval authors and/or works might you recommend? I know of Chaucer but have never read him, have heard of Dante but have only witnessed the bowdlerization of his work in video game format, and have only the vaguest recollection of a poem about a monk who stuck his hands down the trousers of innocent peasant folk until someone farted into his hand in an act of retribution.

      Non nobis Domine, sed nomini, Tuo da gloriam.

      #40966
      Northerner
      @northerner

        @The-inkspiller you will love Orthodoxy. (It’s the book he wrote after he published Heretics, a collection of essays about problems with modern philosophy, and people said, “It’s all very well to tell us what not to believe, but what should we believe in its place?” and partly autobiographical.) And probably Queer Trades. Is The Blue Cross one of the Father Brown stories there? It’s one of the best ones. Thursday is. . . difficult. It would be well to keep the subtitle in mind (which almost no one does): A Nightmare. It’s also very good.

        Chesterton was such a prolific authour, and so much of his writing is really really good, that it came as some comfort a few years ago to find that some of his earlier work was not up to his usual standards. Although you may someday read The Napoleon of Notting Hill, and when you do, you will find it excellent, and think “this was his first novel?” and feel hopelessly inadequate. But he’d had lots of experience with writing before that book, which I think helped.

        Also, that is a great compliment, though it is kind of funny that I come across as “authentically British” when the closest I’ve ever gotten to that land is to read its literature (I’m part Irish, if that counts, but never been there yet either).

        I can’t say I’ve ever heard of that poem about the monk. I can’t say it’s unlikely such a thing would come out of the Middle Ages, because people were human then as they are now, but. . . it’s certainly not representative of the great pieces of art, let’s say. (I mean, Chaucer does get bawdy sometimes, but he’s no worse than Shakespeare. And it’s not a bad idea to read him, if you can.)

        Where to start with the recommendations? The Middle Ages are a huge sweep of time, and there’s so many countries. . . though since I do know most about British lit. I may as well begin there.

        (You know, if you can get your hands on The Norton Anthology of British Literature, vol. I, without going bankrupt, do that. There’s lots of gems in it. It’s also some 900 pages.)

        Bede’s Ecclesiastical History is fascinating for a number of reasons, though I might not put it as required reading for just a general list to get your feet wet. But if you ever have spare time or are interested in historiography or the history of eighth-century Britain, it’s good. Also also also he wrote that Britain was situated near the Pole, which would be a meaningless statement if “everyone back then” believed the earth was flat because the Church suppressed science (he was, after all, a Church-educated monk writing in Latin). And he preserves for us the story of Caedmon and set down Caedmon’s Hymn. But he’s nonfiction.

        Beowulf, duh. Tolkien’s translation has loads and lashings of notes which you might find either something to geek out about, if you’re interested in philology, or a hopeless bog to wander through. I like Seamus Heaney’s translation for verse.

        The Dream of the Rood is an absolutely beautiful Old English poem, and so are The Seafarer and The Wanderer. The issue with these is getting a translation which keeps things sounding like poetry while being intelligible to an M. E. speaker. Anglo-Saxon poetry includes riddles, narrative poems, allegorical poems, hymns, charms, poems about the alphabet. . . there’s so much more than Beowulf. (No offence to him, he’s a lovely poem to study, but it’s a shame so many students think he’s the only piece of art to come out of Britain between 445 and 1066.) For an introduction to the wide range of things, though the translations are apt to give you a literal translation rather than the poetic feel of the originals — for example, one of the main rules of A-S poetry was alliteration, which is hardly ever to be seen in this translator’s examples, and in my opinion that’s a great shame; but if you find a poem you like you can search for other translations to compare, if this isn’t putting too much work on someone whose specialty isn’t this period — you might try this site: https://anglosaxonpoetry.camden.rutgers.edu/.

        Jump forward in time a little bit to The Song of Roland, which is another poem I could go on and on about. . . epic poem probably written in the late 1090’s, about a heroic last stand, treachery, Charlemagne whose beard is streaked with white, Saracen enemies “who truly would be noble knights if they were only Christian”. . . what more could you want? I highly recommend Dorothy Sayers’ translation for this (and just about anything she did, really) — it’s got a good Introduction and will have you striding about the house reading bits aloud to anybody who doesn’t violently push you off.

        Sir Gawain (Tolkien translated this too) is well worth reading. We’re into Middle English now and if you want a challenge you can try to find the original (in the sense of untranslated) and have a stab at it. Lots of influence from French, so if you know that it’ll help (I don’t. so. . .).

        And oh, Dante! What bugs me to no end about a lot of classes Dante gets more than a passing mention in, is that people only read or only mention the Inferno, as if that’s the only thing he wrote. Whether because of the lingering suspicion that the Middle Ages must have been all fire-and-brimstone, or because if you’re going to read his Commedia you may as well start at the beginning, and then run out of time to finish, I don’t know, but it doesn’t do him justice to have kids read the first third of his story and let them grow up thinking it’s all like that. He starts in Hell but he doesn’t end there! Also, he didn’t write just the Comedy, he wrote loads of love poetry to his Beatrice, which we don’t own so I haven’t read, but they’re probably good? Petrarch is another good one at sonnets, of course. (And Michelangelo wrote poetry too — we’ve got a few of his sonnets somewhere. Surprising, and good.) I can’t say everything I’d like about Dante, but I do encourage you to read the Divine Comedy, Inferno, Purgatorio, and Paradiso. Dorothy Sayers did a translation of at least the Inferno, quite probably the others as well. Not light reading — he crams in a classical or contemporary reference on every line — but so very worth it.

        By the way, women writers aren’t unheard of here. Abbess (and later St) Hildegarde of Bingen, Dame Julian of Norwich, and Margery Kempe, were writing things geared to religious life, visions and garden manuals and such. Marie de France wrote Arthurian romances, and Christine De Pisan wrote The Treasury of the City of Ladies, and is therefore cited as being an early feminist. (Whatever. She did tell the ladies they’d better learn the use of arms so when their husbands went off they’d be able to keep their houses safe in case of attack.) The Wife’s Lament, an Anglo-Saxon poem, is from the point of view of, and almost certainly by, a woman. And that’s not counting the tons and tons of anonymous material which is as likely to be by a woman as a man, since we don’t know.

        Machiavelli’s The Prince is very interesting reading. . .

        Depending on when we consider the Middle Ages to have ended, I could toss quite a bit more in there, but that’s probably more than enough to get you started. And the majority is British — think of all the Italian and Spanish and German and French and even Russian stuff waiting out there.

        Oh, and there’s some good news: a lot of these are available for free on various places online, including Project Gutenberg, since in most cases the authours haven’t renewed copyright.

        #40970
        The Inkspiller
        @the-inkspiller

        @Northerner,

        since in most cases the authours haven’t renewed copyright.

        I laughed.

        Many of these I have not read, and now as such are on my list. I actually own one of Christine de Pisan’s works – The Book of Deeds, of Arms, and of Chivalry, which I originally picked up as reading to inspire and guide the creation of my beloved/terrifying Countess Kyreleis, her tactical and strategic mind fused with both the Prince’s pragmatism and an understanding of the value of chivalry.

        And speaking of The Prince, that was actually one of my favorite books which I was assigned in college. Machiavelli was  quite the straight forward writer (as was his translator!), and where others found him a terrible cynic, I perceived him as ultimately looking out for the welfare of his people, highlighting the great difficulty of being a successful political leader while at once obeying your conscience – and his following Discourses which brought his republican, anti-tyrannical leanings to the stage with fury made it much more difficult to see The Prince as the writings of a despot-wannabe.

        Relating to translations of poetry never sounding like the original – I have experienced this firsthand, though in Russian and not in older variants of English. English translations of Russian poetry just utterly fails to capture the emotive power of the original structures. Пророк, or Prophet, by Pushkin (repeatedly voted as the greatest Russian who ever lived by Russians), is an experience – it is something to be heard and comprehended in its original language. There are good translations available, but just hearing it spoken is incredible. I can give you links to the translated version and to the Russian reading of it which I used to memorize it for my oral.

        I do find myself surprised that you’re not British. Perhaps I have been reading too much Chesterton (as if there can be such a thing!) Nevertheless, you compose yourself well, regardless of nationality!

        Non nobis Domine, sed nomini, Tuo da gloriam.

        #40971
        Sarah Narnathron
        @sarah-narnathron

        @northerner You’re welcome!

        Ahhhhhh. I suppose I can understand that— the second point more than the first. I’ve generally thought of acting as only a few points off from normal storytelling (in which you are also saying something that isn’t necessarily true, but which hopefully reveals some truth). That said, I also have a few friends who are very into theater, so I’m probably a bit biased.

        And no, you haven’t time-travelled. I just haven’t gotten around to fixing my signature. Danke sehr for the reminder.

        Welcome to the masquerade.

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