April 10, 2019 at 3:59 pm #86042
Okiday, here we go again. XD
Point 1 and 3: *Wipes nervous sweat off my face* Wonderful, I was ready to crawl into a hole and die for sounding upset because I was not upset.
2: Well, hang around on here long enough, and maybe she’ll pop up one day, just not in the near future. And then she’ll cook you. XD
5 “Ok, your analogy is close but it needs to be modified a bit: we are not the nessisitys itself but rather BEARERS of nessisitys. so the correct analogy would be “That’s like saying who is more important, someone who has food or someone who has water?”
O.K. That confuses me a little bit. How are we just the bearers of the necessities? (Sorry this is so random, but every thought I had in my head was just scattered by the parody that came on over here. XD) I don’t quite understand. Well, you could probably go two or three days without food, but really, how long can you go without food before you begin to feel the effects of it? For example, last year during a week long conference in which a LOT of walking around was involved I first of all didn’t have much time to eat between activities and furthermore all but lost my appetite and had to force myself to eat anything. I drank a ton of water, but ate hardly anything at all. It got to the point where one day in choir I thought I might pass out. Then when we left, my strength had been so utterly depleted that I got sick and the sickness took over. Nasty experience, I can assure you. You DO need food. Depending on the person and what you are doing, just a single day without food can mess you up. We’re actually about a month away from going back… I am hoping I’ll be able to eat a little more this time…
6. O.K… I think so far you have firmly established that your claim is that in general the thinking function is superior to the feeling function. I guess we’ll just go with that.
7. That the world could be better without emotion? That’s like saying the could be better without wind and sound. Or that a film could be made without music (please do not try to convince me that it can, because it can’t).
9. O.K. Maybe you don’t. XD However, my point still stands that emotional support aside, feelers can help tone thinkers bluntness down and thinkers can help toughen up feelers. I have a feeling that you would probably disagree that thinkers need to be toned down in their bluntness, but yes, everybody needs to be respectful and kind to each other, even in conflict, there still needs to be respect for the other person.
10. *Raises and eyebrow back (actually I can’t raise one eyebrow at a time, so I’ll just look really skeptical)* 😉 How does my analogy fall apart? Thinking and logic is the backbone and foundation, and feeling is what fills it out. And I am still not really understanding how we are only bearers of our cognitive functions. We ARE our minds. Yes, we don’t want to shove ourselves into stereotypes, but the way we think is just a part of us.
12. Shrug away, I’m glad not everybody is an ENFP, and I’m also glad not everybody is an INTJ. XD
I think I have to agree… especially with a thinker, that way I am much less concerned about hurting somebody’s feelings. Debating with an INFJ or INFP… That can be painful. XD And I’m an ENFP saying that so…
O.K. I dislike saying superior, I continue to say that I think better suited is a better term, but I also slightly agree with the idea that some roles are better filled by certain personalities.
Like, if you look up famous ENFPs, they are majorly directors and actors. I could be both, I am very in sync with those two things. I could never be an engineer. I need to be involved in creative fields. I think an INTP would make a better lawyer than an INFP. Not because their cognitive functions are superior, but because they are better suited. I prefer politicians that are critical thinkers than emotional basket cases. XD
On the matter of love–I actually have a thought to share. So. It’s my personal opinion that as believers, we have more… how should I put it…. capacity? Ability? to love than non-believers. Not that they can’t love, but I don’t think they can fully and truly understand what real, pure love is as a non-believer. The Bible states several times that God is love, and if He is love, how can a non-believer love anything to the fullest and purest extent possible when they do not have God? There is a bond between parent and child that I think is probably the strongest of a non-believer’s loves, but as a believer that bond only strengthens more because we realize that our lives have value because we are made in the image of God, not because we do something, which in turn makes us realize exactly how wrong things like abortion are. You cannot say that you are not killing a human being because it’s unborn when we are considered human for simply being.
O.K. I love that question!!! I’m going to have a lot of fun typing this out…
So, I’ve actually heard people talk about this. The guy who was speaking started out by asking is a seventh grader could fall in love. Do I believe it’s possible? Yes I do, whether or not it’s a good idea is an entirely different conversation. Nevertheless, I do believe it is possible. Now, take a seventh grader and a seventeen-year-old. Who has more capacity to love in that way? Obviously, the seventeen-year-old.
I’d claim that all humans are born with the same capacity to love, but that capacity is not perfect. Humans generally love themselves best. We have sinful natures and we can’t love perfectly. Now, I’m not saying that someone who isn’t a believer can’t love selflessly, but as a rule, we don’t love selflessly in our own strength. I believe that when we become Christians however, we are given a different type of love, and that love is through Christ. With God’s love in us, we are given perfect love.
Another thought, is that this world has such a skewed understanding of love, we hardly even know what it means. If you asked a random person what love is, what would they say? Love can involve feeling, but in the end, it is action. Choice. And it isn’t always logical, sometimes it is the most unrealistic thing in the world to do. How can people who don’t have a biblical understanding of love even understand how to love? I’d say I agree with you on that one. 🙂 Thanks for bringing the question up, I find that one really interesting. 🙂
Here’s another question, as an INTJ, what is your love language? I’m curious if personality dictates this one or if it is much more subjective.
YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I FINALLY found another Gladiator fan!!!!!!!! I just watched it a couple weeks ago, and I am IN LOVE WITH THAT MOVIE!!!!!!!!!!! It is seriously almost as good as LOTR in my opinion. And the music… *falls over* I absolutely love the music in that film!!!! Lucilla is one of my new favorite characters, and Commodus made it way up there on my list of creepy villains. Ugh…. CREEPER!!!!!!!
I totally get you about music in movies too… music hardly ever makes me cry, but it does move me deeply. Music is almost as important to me as writing in a lot of ways, I am a highly musical person. The one song that has ever made me weep is My Love Has Gone Across the Sea…
Tek an ohta! Tek an cala!April 10, 2019 at 6:21 pm #86058Selah CJW@selah-chelyah
Lol, you’d better believe it!
Assistant Guildmaster of the Awesome Meraki
~ Created to create ~April 10, 2019 at 6:39 pm #86060Sink@sarah-inkdragon
*grins* Good. I’m glad we can all debate friendly-like in this thread, since that’s something that’s hard to find anymore. (Believe me, I would be on the debate team in school if I wasn’t so anxious about speaking in front of people.)
Now, for Inconceivable first–
1. Ah, so you’re saying that some types just have a general superiority over everything else, yes? If so…. I’m not completely positive if I can agree or disagree. In general, a thinking type should be considered “superior”–because we’re logical, plan ahead, and pretty perfectionist. That’s generally a good thing to be, since being logical allows you to make good decisions, planning ahead allows for the ability to see mistakes or problems, and perfectionism, to a certain degree, allows for good work ethic(which is something we all need). So generally, you can assume that the thinking type would take preference over the feeler type, since feelers generally tend to be less logic-oriented and more determined on their emotions. (No offense feelers.)
But then there’s the question of maturity and how that plays into affect on the psychological level to alter the brain’s preference of thinking vs. feeling. Does a mature person let their emotions take effect over their logic? No. That’s why they’re mature. An immature person is the kind of person that allows for their emotions and feelings to take precedent over the logic, hence why they make immature decisions. (I’m not saying that feelers are more immature…. bear with me.) So once a person reaches a mature state, can any specific type actually determine what advantages and disadvantages that person has? Since, as a mature person, they will make the most logical and correct decision that will damage feelings the least but also remain analytically correct.
Type is merely a statement of what someone lets dictate their lives. As a thinker, yes, I have an intellectual advantage over many feelers, since my brain is patterned and taught to think in a more linear way most of the time. I’m a generally quiet, blunt, and strongly opinionated person, on the high honor roll and planning for an 8+ year degree in the medical field.
If you stood me next to one of my best friends, who is a feeler, extremely extroverted and talkative, and planning to become a pilot plus a cosmetologist, who do you think would contribute to society more, honestly?
By my own judgement and the general view of people, I would. Medical vs. Cosmetology. Sure, her field might be good for some things, but mine would be better for the world and society, right?
Which is where thinker vs. feeler comes in. The scientist vs. the speaker. Scientists are generally thinkers, speakers generally feelers. They can swap roles, but that’s the general consensus. Yet who do you think understand the patterns of the human brain more? Technically, the scientist could. But the speaker is the person who has the intuitive skill to understand human min outside of technical terms. He understand how we think, what makes us feel good, what makes us laugh and what makes us cry. The scientist knows that these things happen through certain circumstances, but who do you think would be a more convincing candidate for an election? Who do you think people are going to understand and sympathize with?
So sure, I might be more “book smart” than my friend, but in the end, who’s more likely to be liked, helpful, and loved by people and therefore open up advantages for them that I could never reach? I could never be as sympathizing or charismatic as my best friend. And in turn, she could probably never be as satisfied being alone or debating with people as I am. But we can both understand people and help people to the same capacity. And isn’t that what we’re here for?
You say that some functions are more needed in the general scope of life than others. But can any really? Functions are simply how someone’s brain works–the feeler can be logical and the thinker can be emotional. Overall, is it less of a question of function more a question of character?
Now, for @ericawordsmith XD
According to 5lovelanguages.com, I am “Words of Affirmation”. Which makes sense, really. I value someone’s words very much, since they can generally do anything they want once they realize they’ve done something that hurts me, or can do the same thing for someone else that they’re doing for me for someone else, which takes away from the personal affect of it for me, I suppose; but they can usually only complement me or say something that’s meaningful to me to me, an no one else. It’s also rather funny though because I generally hate it when people say things but don’t actually do them–but I generally don’t value someone’s words about me unless they’re close to me, so people who say something but are not close to me and then do not fulfill their words don’t usually affect me since I already assume that they’re going to disappointing me since most people only really remember or value the people that they are close to as well….. I’m a pessimistic person at times. XD
*vader vibes*April 10, 2019 at 8:32 pm #86070
@sarah-inkdragon: Ok, to start off, i think you explained your stance well and I appreciate that. : D (hehe, I like the way you think XD) However, I would like to make some distinctions and make some points:
1. First I would like to mention I never said thinking functions are better then feeling funtions… I’m merely claimed some functions are generally better then others. However, it is true that I would be inclined to hold thinking functions over feeling funtions for the reasons you listed but particularly for a thinker’s inborn level of self-control. I think that being moved and shaken by numerous desires that ebb and flow is the greatest disadvantage of feeling types. Not saying thinkers CANT be shaken or moved by those same desires but we are far less inclined to do so and consequently, often have far more self-control. I think this is a better term for the ‘maturity’ you mentioned. The fact is self control is NEVER bad and, in my opinion, the key to both worldly and spiritual success. In regard to this quote “I’m not saying that feelers are more immature” I would disagree. You even defined immaturity as “the kind of person that allows for their emotions and feelings to take precedent over the logic” which is what makes a feeler a feeler. Being ‘immature’ as you define is inherit to the definition of a feeler. Now, I’m not claiming all feelers ARE lacking in self control but I am claiming their inherently inclined to be. Thus, I would be inclined to belive feelers inferior but, as you mention latter on, there are other factors to consiter.
“As a thinker, yes, I have an intellectual advantage over many feelers” actually I will disagree with you there. I think, in terms of natural ablity and such, the INTJ’s brian is actually not supperior to a feelers (or, if it is, the difference is minimal.) Rather I would argue INTJ’s posses the self-control and desire for knolage most feelers lack. The fact is I know an INFJ’s who has a 4.0 GPA and ENFP who is top of his class; these are people who, dispite their inclinations, found the desire to know and the self control to do so. Both these people, in school in particular are REALLY smart (and trust me, that irks me to no end! I hate it when people are smarter then me XD) and the reason why is they have those desires. Now, in feelers, I think this is actually a sigh of unhealthiness. The desire to be the best springs out of a need for affirmation or a intense fear of failer (or what ever else) and often ends up placing them in a very unhealty place. YET, the point remains those who should be inferior in intellect are superior (at least to me. I’m certain their are feelers smarter then you too : D) Further more, I would argue ‘intelligence’ or ‘intelect’ is almsot whole determined by ones ability to learn. In my view, anyone can become top of their class if they study hard and devote every waking hour to learning. In most ways I don’t belive ‘smarts’ is a mesure of nature but rather of nuture. Not to say their ARNT factor of natuer that can hinder ones ablity to learn; there are. But if possesing the desire and the self-contol to see it though, I belive even an ESFP can become a quantum physisist; the thing is they are born inhertly laking both. So no, I dont belive an INTJ’s brian is better then others (mostly); rahter we simply posses the will for it to be. Tell me if you disagree ; D
“The scientist vs. the speaker.” right, you have a point and this is one of those ‘other factors to consiter’ I was mentioning earlyer. Its similar to the Ti and Te think. Ti dominants are definitively smarter. their conclustions are well backed, thoroughly examoned, and well, right XD Us Te’s on the other hand are hasty to jump to conclustions. We often dont examon all the facts just enough facts and then we proclaim our proclimations from the roof top. Yet, while I hold the Ti user supeior, the Te user changes the world far more so which is really supperior? I’m not quite sure (and hence why I didnt say feelers are inferior to thinkers ; D) BUT, what I am sure about is the individual who posesses self control is superior to the one who lacks it and thats why I can assert Te users supprior to Se users and would be inclied to say thinkers are superior to feelers. Anyway, in regard to your final question about charater I would argue your charater is compried of your nature and your nuture of which natuer is a vital part. So no, I would argue such a statment does not warent we diverge from our perent discuation as, by understadning nature we gain a better grasp of charater ; D
INTJ- trying to grow into real wisdom; James 3:17April 11, 2019 at 1:23 am #86100Sink@sarah-inkdragon
Thank you! I’m glad I came across well. Sometimes I have trouble stating exactly what I want to say and people get confused, and that’s never good in a debate. XD
1. I do agree with you that thinkers generally have more self control than feelers, at least on a logical level. Like say, I’d have more self control over how much money I spend on a trip than a feeler perhaps because they’re more likely to buy sentimental items that I don’t necessarily view as something that people need, and therefore don’t buy. I kind of assumed that you were debating a more thinker vs. feeler since that’s what it sounded like, but if we’re going into just in general that any type can be better than certain types…. maybe? I’d have to do a bit more research on it(I’ll do it tomorrow, it’s 11 PM right now XD), as it’s my personal hunch that as we age, we shift more towards a Ti or Te in general rather than a Fe or Fi, since we gain more capacity to understand the world and people in a mature way, which would support your idea that thinkers are generally better than feelers. But like I said, I’d have to do more research to see if there’s any evidence supporting that. (On the meantime, @ericawordsmith, what do you think of the idea that people shift from Fe or Fi to Ti or Te as they grow older? I want to hear your side. XD)
2. I was speaking more on a right brain vs. left brain meaning, sorry if that didn’t come through. (Like I said, that happens sometimes lol) I was generally just meaning that in the intellectual “community” or whatever they’d like to call it, left-brain or thinker functions generally have an advantage since they think linearly and usually are more number/logic oriented than feelers, who tend to be right-brained and very creative, which is often more suited for the art or entertainment industry, for example. So I wasn’t trying to say that I as an INTJ am smarter than an Fe or Fi(I also know several feelers with 3.5-4.0 GPA’s), but that in general, most would assume I have more of an advantage intellectually.
3. To me Ti and Te balance each other out, since one is generally more philosophically smarter(Ti) but the other is more ready and willing to do something with the smarts they have(Te), in my opinion? So if Ti and Te “balance”, then perhaps feelers and thinkers balance? There must be feelers, since logically we can’t all be thinkers(if we’re all thinkers then none of us are, we’re just all very similar people and obviously no one on earth thinks exactly the same as the next), so why shouldn’t the amount of feeler to thinker balance out to create a harmony in which some of us are more in tune to logic and some are more in tune to people? (Again, not that feeler’s can’t be logical.)
I shall return tomorrow. For now, I’m going to bed. 😉
*vader vibes*April 11, 2019 at 6:41 am #86103Taylor Clogston@taylorclogston
I don’t have any fancy arguments to add to this, but at the very least there’s good evidence that the left-right dichotomy is not as meaningful as you probably learned as a wee child.
And in my experience, there is a definite immaturity in dwelling in rationality while rejecting emotion. I did this as a coping mechanism in my teens and I’m still recovering from it. It let me ignore a lot of pain but made me a terrible person because, as it happens, humans are emotional creatures, and God made us this way, being emotional Himself.
It would be terrible if this weren’t the case. Mercy and grace are irrational responses. The entire created world is corrupt and good for nothing but destruction. Without emotion, our relationship with God cannot be anything more than “If I do not accept Christ, then I will be tortured for eternity. Therefore, I will accept Christ.”
Except without Christ as a gift of love, there would be no offer of salvation to begin with.
The teacher of Ecclesiastes tells us there is a time for every purpose under heaven. I believe this applies to rationality and emotion. Jesus exemplified this when Lazarus died. Jesus knew that Lazarus would return, telling his disciples that he was only sleeping, and telling Martha that he would rise again. Lazarus was not lost.
But then Mary showed up.
As soon as Mary came to where Jesus was and saw him, she fell at his feet and told him, “Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died!” When Jesus saw her crying, and the Jews who had come with her crying, he was deeply moved in his spirit and troubled. “Where have you put him?” he asked. “Lord,” they told him, “come and see.” Jesus wept. So the Jews said, “See how he loved him!” But some of them said, “Couldn’t he who opened the blind man’s eyes also have kept this man from dying?” (John 11:32-37 CSB)
It doesn’t matter how useful or practical rationality can be. We aren’t robots, and were made for more than usefulness. One of the most beautiful chapters in the Bible attests to this, to our purpose as Christians on the Earth.
If I speak human or angelic tongues but do not have love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith so that I can move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing. And if I give away all my possessions, and if I give over my body in order to boast but do not have love, I gain nothing.
Love is patient, love is kind. Love does not envy, is not boastful, is not arrogant, is not rude, is not self-seeking, is not irritable, and does not keep a record of wrongs. Love finds no joy in unrighteousness but rejoices in the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
Love never ends. But as for prophecies, they will come to an end; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will come to an end. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will come to an end. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put aside childish things. For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I will know fully, as I am fully known. Now these three remain: faith, hope, and love—but the greatest of these is love. (1 Corinthians 13 CSB)
"...the one with whom he so sought to talk has already interceded for him." -The Master and MargaritaApril 11, 2019 at 6:42 am #86104Taylor Clogston@taylorclogstonApril 11, 2019 at 11:42 am #86127Liana J. Douglas@lianajdouglas
Sees an MBTI debate…
…Gives up and joins in
Alright, first off, I gotta say that this is awesome. I love seeing friendly debates. XD
@theinconceivable1 I find it interesting that you would suggest a superiority of some functions over others for the reason that thinkers have more self-control than feelers. MBTI isn’t based on which type you are- thinker vs. feeler- and saying that you cannot have the other. It’s based on preference. Thinkers just prefer to have more “self-control” than feelers, but that doesn’t mean that thinkers can’t be indecisive and “flighty” as well. Feelers can still make confident and swift decisions, but they prefer to mull things over before coming to a conclusion. A thinker prefers to be more focused on logic and what makes sense to them- efficiency- while a feeler prefers to feel. A feeler wants to understand the intricate workings and emotions before making decisions. A person isn’t less “self-controlled” as a feeler, though they may appear that way to us thinkers. They simply prefer to express their emotions outwardly instead of pushing them aside. Self-control is not a good base for superiority because everyone has their own way of controlling. While a thinker might see a feeler’s tears as a weakness that proves the feeler is not self-controlled, the feeler might say that the thinker is being too judgemental and should be more self-controlled and not think so harshly of others. It goes both ways.
This world will often elevate the thinkers because they are the ones who tend to accomplish material things- the ones who continue to make physical advancements and improvements. Thinkers are focused more on accomplishment, while feelers are focused more on relationships. I might even argue that feelers could be superior because of Jesus’ example- he came to make relationships, not to fix all of the world’s problems. Though I’m not about to type Jesus, because I don’t believe he can or should fit into the MBTI boxes.
MBTI isn’t about showing how some types have better functions than others- it’s about showing how a person thinks and why they do the things they do. Each person has their strengths and weaknesses, and MBTI is simply a tool to understand this better. There is no function that trumps the rest. We need a balance of thinkers and feelers in this world to grow and learn effectively.
ENTJ. Artist. Actress. Fantasy Fiction. MBTI Nerd. Star Wars. Marvel Films. Piano. Jesus Freak.April 12, 2019 at 1:39 pm #86187
*Groans and decides to pick and choose as this thing has gotten confusing and broad*
This is going to be long. XD
So, I’m going to lump a ton of what y’all said into a big thing and give an ENFP perspective (which does not hold for all feelers, and keep in mind that ENFPs can be odd in the realm of feelers).
“In general, a thinking type should be considered “superior”–because we’re logical, plan ahead, and pretty perfectionist. That’s generally a good thing to be, since being logical allows you to make good decisions, planning ahead allows for the ability to see mistakes or problems, and perfectionism, to a certain degree, allows for good work ethic(which is something we all need). So generally, you can assume that the thinking type would take preference over the feeler type, since feelers generally tend to be less logic-oriented and more determined on their emotions. (No offense feelers.)”
So with this here… I am a feeler, by all means! But I agree with you that people need to have a good work ethic, know how to make good decisions, use their logic, think critically, think for themselves, stand up under pressure, the whole nine yards. I am all for that, and for the record, I am a perfectionist. If I play a ten page recital piece in a recital, I will probably play pretty much perfectly, get up, bow and walk off-stage kicking myself inwardly for the five wrong notes I hit or a pedal change I missed. I am not satisfied unless it is utterly perfect. So, I would say that what you’ve just described sums up the way that thinkers generally are, but I also think that these are also just basic skills that a person needs in life. Even as a feeler.
On the question of maturity… What makes a person mature? @sarah-inkdragon, you summed it up pretty well in the realm of thinking/feeling. I can’t stand seeing an emotional breakdown in which the person is being stupid (most the time because they brought it on themselves). When girls have teenage melodrama in which I believe they are being dumb, it annoys me to no little end. I absolutely believe that we NEED mature feelers. Immature feelers drive me bonkers…
Another illustration is putting any “useful” field, medical, political, etc. Anything that we genuinely NEED in society against what I’m going to go to college for. I’m going to a Christian college (Lord-willing) for a 4-year music program with an emphasis on vocal performance. Now, when we think of society, which is better? Well, we NEED our basic needs, we need order, health and economy. So on first glance, that is more “important?” But when you understand that while medical is probably going to help keep somebody alive or help them with their physical needs, or government will keep guidelines on people and organize society, music is going to have an entirely different power, you can’t dismiss that it is a critical part of the human existence. I won’t go into it, but music is a power that we may not even think about all the time, but when you take each individual and think about them as an individual, it is probably music that will have the greater impact on their lives. For instance I’ve had to deal with a ton of annoying dental work due to smashing my mouth into a pool wall six years ago. Yes, the dentist has helped me fix my poor mouth, but Andrew Peterson who I have never met has ministered to my heart in some of my deepest needs and hopeless moments. They are two different types of power, and like thinking and feeling, we need both. Music is a lot like emotion, they have a lot of the same power.
I think in some ways, you are right that it is a matter of character rather than function.
I agree, strongly and disagree strongly in the same moment in such a way that makes this baffling. XD
Like I said, I can’t stand a lack of self-control in areas where we need them. When a girl is running around blabbing to the world about how her life is ruined or that she is super attracted to a guy I want to claw my face off. Or when because a feeler can’t see logic and won’t see the light (which I am guilty of in some cases actually…) and doggedly makes life miserable on me or other people especially, I want to knock some sense into their head. In essence, I can’t stand stupidity in a feeler.
I believe behavior can be superior, but not their cognitive functions. I wholeheartedly believe that just because you have a dominant feeling over thinking, that doesn’t mean that you can’t think, because you DO have thinking functions. You may be more sensitive and less thick skinned than an INTJ, but you can think deeply and logically in the places where you need to. The thing that is hopeful for feelers is that they can eventually become more of a thinker and grow a tougher skin, but they will also have that insight and sensitivity to emotion that makes them much better with people than the thinkers. That is why I do not agree that cognitive functions or types can be better than other types. And believe me, certain types can really get under my skin, and I can very easily feel like they should be different. It may just be that they need a behavior change, and I need to realize that there is no superior type or cognitive function.
O.K. Now this one… I want to call you buddy, but I can’t on this site because I would be calling the wrong name, and I don’t want to sound upset again by calling you dude… This is where you are not understanding feelers. Let me quote ya here.
“’As a thinker, yes, I have an intellectual advantage over many feelers’” actually I will disagree with you there. I think, in terms of natural ablity and such, the INTJ’s brian is actually not supperior to a feelers (or, if it is, the difference is minimal.) Rather I would argue INTJ’s posses the self-control and desire for knolage most feelers lack. The fact is I know an INFJ’s who has a 4.0 GPA and ENFP who is top of his class; these are people who, dispite their inclinations, found the desire to know and the self control to do so. Both these people, in school in particular are REALLY smart (and trust me, that irks me to no end! I hate it when people are smarter then me XD) and the reason why is they have those desires. Now, in feelers, I think this is actually a sigh of unhealthiness. The desire to be the best springs out of a need for affirmation or a intense fear of failer (or what ever else) and often ends up placing them in a very unhealty place. YET, the point remains those who should be inferior in intellect are superior (at least to me. I’m certain their are feelers smarter then you too : D) Further more, I would argue ‘intelligence’ or ‘intelect’ is almsot whole determined by ones ability to learn. In my view, anyone can become top of their class if they study hard and devote every waking hour to learning. In most ways I don’t belive ‘smarts’ is a mesure of nature but rather of nuture. Not to say their ARNT factor of natuer that can hinder ones ablity to learn; there are. But if possesing the desire and the self-contol to see it though, I belive even an ESFP can become a quantum physisist; the thing is they are born inhertly laking both. So no, I dont belive an INTJ’s brian is better then others (mostly); rahter we simply posses the will for it to be. Tell me if you disagree ; D”
O.K. Here is where your opinion that cognitive functions falls apart. If everybody has the same level of smart, then they have the ability to excel. It comes down to the willpower/self-control/character to do so. Yes, an INFP might not make a great lawyer because of their sensitivity or and INTJ could be a really bad choice for a counsellor as they are probably not going to be sympathetic with people who need help.
Now, I just have to beg to disagree about it being unhealthy for feelers to have the drive and desire to excel. That is just… I’m sorry, but if you tell me that because I want to excel at something I am unhealthy, that is simply going to make me stare at you and wonder what you think I should be doing. Personally, your complaint is that feelers don’t have self-control or don’t come by it naturally. So why do you think it is unhealthy for them to have it? It is not unhealthy for us to have a strong work ethic, we NEED it. And as an ENFP, here is my experience with working hard to achieve something…
I never finished Algebra 1, I hadn’t picked up anything about math in 2 1/2-3 years and had forgotten just about everything by the time I was seventeen, and I hated math with everything in me. It didn’t make sense and I despised it (I still feel that way). Yet I was taking CLEP tests as my high school and the time came to take College Mathematics. It took me several months to get it down, but I knew I had to do it. I worked extremely hard on it, and I passed. I have a lot of other test stories too, but I can tell you that all of them I did because I wanted to take them, not because I felt insecure.
If I want something enough that I will stick to it, I want it for me, not affirmation. I think this is probably the way other ENFPs are too, the other one I spent time with in real life was like this. If I have latched onto something I want to accomplish, you will break me before you get that thing from me. Sometimes you even manage to break me temporarily and I’ll still come back. I love a good challenge and if I have made up my mind to excel at it/accomplish it, it is very hard, almost impossible to stop me. The other ENFP I have witnessed was the same way. She wanted what she wanted for the challenge, not the acceptance. We appreciate applause and admiration, but not acceptance.
In the end, I would not label (especially an ENFP) a high achieving feeler unhealthy because their desire to be the best came from an insecurity or that it is unhealthy. J. R. R. Tolkien was an INFP and is the literary giant of the fantasy genre.
I do agree that with your statement about the ESFP. XD That type of human… In the immature sense… Drives me poor brain bananas. XD Yet I do agree that they can do well if they choose to.
“Ti dominants are definitively smarter. their conclustions are well backed, thoroughly examoned, and well, right XD Us Te’s on the other hand are hasty to jump to conclustions.”
Hold up… You just said that no type is smarter in your last paragraph. 😉 I would say that Ti is awesome, but it doesn’t make a person smarter. Yes, armed with Te I often have to write out my thoughts to make sense of them or have very long conversations with myself out loud, but that doesn’t mean that Te is less smart, it’s just that we have to understand our own brains and know how to make them behave properly. AKA, don’t just blab something that you haven’t thought through. XD Self-control again.
On Ti/Te and Fi/Fe… I have Te and Fi. I haven’t quite gotten a firm understanding of how those functions really play out, but I wouldn’t call Te/Ti a matter of smarter, I’d call it a matter of understanding how your brain works and how to use it. Yes, it does go back to scientist/speaker again, but I wouldn’t call one or the other smarter necessarily. I’m not actually convinced that there are not some people who genuinely have a higher IQ, or some people who are just genuinely a little slower. So as for changing from Ti to Te… I don’t know that you can actually change that without actually changing your personality, and your cognitive functions are simply the way your brain works so… I’d say once more it’s a matter of character. My mom is much more of an introvert and nervous about public speaking. She stresses and prepares for it long in advance. At the same time, she is doing a lot more of it because she believes she should. Then you have me who doesn’t really know what real stage fright is. I absolutely love performing, acting, anything that puts me on stage. It just comes naturally to me whereas my mom has to push herself to do it. I’d say it’s more a matter of character once more, or nurturing nature to develop strengths you don’t naturally come by. I’m always surprised when somebody says they’re terrified of speaking in front of people when I think they’re great speakers. I don’t really think you can really change your cognitive functions, but you can develop your character and learn how to use your noggin to the best of its ability. XD
Thank you for adding that!! I totally agree with that. We can be so glad that God didn’t treat us how he logically should have treated us. He gave us emotion in the first place so that we could love him. That’s one of the things that proves we are created in his image. Thank you for adding that! 🙂
Oh thank you!! That was awesome!! I totally agree, especially with your last paragraph.
“MBTI isn’t about showing how some types have better functions than others- it’s about showing how a person thinks and why they do the things they do. Each person has their strengths and weaknesses, and MBTI is simply a tool to understand this better. There is no function that trumps the rest. We need a balance of thinkers and feelers in this world to grow and learn effectively.”
Thank you very much, this is exactly what I’ve been trying to say (and not communicating well probably).
Tek an ohta! Tek an cala!April 12, 2019 at 11:36 pm #86238
Oh, nice new profile pic ; D Sorry, I didn’t mean to ignore you I just honestly didn’t see your post when I response to sarah ; D Anyway, let’s get into it!
3.”How are we just the bearers of the necessities?” We aren’t the essence of emotion or the essence of thought we simply possess emotion and thought. It’s like if a light bulb puts off light it’s a ‘bearer’ of light, not light itself ; D “You DO need food.” also, I didn’t claim emotion isn’t a necessity (though I may in the future ; D)
6. “I think so far you have firmly established that your claim is that in general the thinking function is superior to the feeling function” actually no. I might be inclined to think that but the only functions i’ve actually climbed superpro is Te to Se because They often exhibits far more self control then Se…
7. “That the world could be better without emotion? That’s like saying the could be better without wind and sound. Or that a film could be made without music (please do not try to convince me that it can, because it can’t).” I disagree but I think that’s more a matter of option than anything else and I want to focus on other stuff ; D
8. “emotional support aside, feelers can help tone thinkers bluntness down and thinkers can help toughen up feelers.” we only need to be toned down because there is feelers so it’s kind of solving a problem it caused XD
“it’s my personal hunch that as we age, we shift more towards a Ti or Te in general rather than a Fe or Fi” hum well if you find some evidence for that hunch let me know ; D
“in general, most would assume I have more of an advantage intellectually.” I can’t really disagree but I think think most ‘smarts’ as we commonly use the term is determined by will and self-control rather than one’s particular nature ; D
“why shouldn’t the amount of feeler to thinker balance out to create a harmony in which some of us are more in tune to logic and some are more in tune to people?” maybe you’re right, maybe they do ‘balance’ but I would still be inclined to say one is generally superior to the other ; D
@taylorclogston: I highly disagree. God is not irrational and therefore cannot commit irrational actions. While I may want to argue against your ‘we need emotion to have relationship’ argument I haven’t the time right now so I’ll let it ride ; D Anyway, thanks for your thoughts!
@lianajdouglas: “Thinkers just prefer to have more “self-control” than feelers, but that doesn’t mean that thinkers can’t be indecisive and “flighty” as well.” I never claimed that or at the very least never intend to ; D read what I said in my last post: “I think that being moved and shaken by numerous desires that ebb and flow is the greatest disadvantage of feeling types. Not saying thinkers CAN be shaken or moved by those same desires but we are far less inclined to do so”
“A person isn’t less “self-controlled” as a feeler, though they may appear that way to us thinkers.” uh, yes they are XD What definition of self control are you using?
@ericawordsmith“When a girl is running around babbling to the world about how her life is ruined or that she is super attracted to a guy I want to claw my face off. ” *grins* you just got a brownie point XD
“I believe behavior can be superior, but not their cognitive functions” then we agree! The thing is certain function incline an individual to certain behaviors and that’s what I deem certain functions generally superior ; D
“If everybody has the same level of smart, then they have the ability to excel.” uh, no. You need the will and the self-control to act it out… like i said before ; D
“that is simply going to make me stare at you and wonder what you think I should be doing. Personally, your complaint is that feelers don’t have self-control or don’t come by it naturally. So why do you think it is unhealthy for them to have it?” being driven by fear or emotional need is not self control. As soon as that is gone your ‘self-control’ unterly disintegrates (I know I guy, INFP, that had this happen to him actually) I’m not saying ALL feelers are unhealthy if their great achievers it’s just, from what I perceive, often they do it for the wrong reasons ; D But hey, I’m not a feeler, and if I’m wrong I’m ok with that! Either way, its a side note ; D “I did because I wanted to take them, not because I felt insecure.” ok cool *shrugs* maybe I’m wrong : D
“You just said that no type is smarter in your last paragraph” oh, ya your right… Sorry, my bad XD
Ok, sorry for the quick responses! Not upset just trying to get this done fast (and I’m tired XD) anyway, good debate guys, keep it up, and might I add at this point it might be good to define what we mean by emotion? (I know, that ought to be easy right XD)
INTJ- trying to grow into real wisdom; James 3:17April 13, 2019 at 10:50 am #86274Buddy J.@wordsmithApril 13, 2019 at 11:10 am #86279
Will be looking forward to whatever you put on here. 😉
We will meet your fiery wrath? Does that mean there’s a third opinion?
Tek an ohta! Tek an cala!April 13, 2019 at 6:35 pm #86370
Thank you! And it’s totally fine. 🙂
3. O.K. That makes sense…
6. O.K. Although this thread sort of has turned into Feeling has inferior behavior or not to thinking, but O.K. XD
7. Umm… No, that is not an opinion. If we were not meant to have emotion, God wouldn’t have created us with it. 🙂
8. This is true… But it is also good that we have feelers (would elaborate, but am choosing not to).
Umm… I also very much disagree with what you said to @taylorclogston
I highly disagree. God is not irrational and therefore cannot commit irrational actions. While I may want to argue against your ‘we need emotion to have relationship’ argument
Is mercy rational or irrational? Is it irrational to sacrifice for the sake of love?
And we also know that God feels emotion, otherwise, why did Jesus weep? Why did he sweat drops of blood? Many times in the Bible, it references Jesus and God having emotion. Also, yes, if you want a meaningful relationship, you need emotion. Emotion is like the cement that holds a brick building together. No, emotion is not the basis of a relationship, but it is a key element, and it is vital.
Brownie point, amen. I tell you putting up with that nonsense requires a great amount of self-control to not ask them, “have you no dignity, girl??” XD
“‘I believe behavior can be superior, but not their cognitive functions’ then we agree! The thing is certain function incline an individual to certain behaviors and that’s what I deem certain functions generally superior ; D”
No, we don’t agree. XD I had a feeling you would jump on that one. We don’t agree because I believe any MBTI type can have exemplary behavior, and though the cognitive functions help, they are not superior. No matter what your cognitive function, a person should have good behavior (self control/critical thinking and all the rest) no matter how their noodle works.
“‘If everybody has the same level of smart, then they have the ability to excel.’ uh, no. You need the will and the self-control to act it out…”
And having strength of character gives you the will and self-control.
“being driven by fear or emotional need is not self control. As soon as that is gone your ‘self-control’ unterly disintegrates (I know I guy, INFP, that had this happen to him actually) I’m not saying ALL feelers are unhealthy if their great achievers it’s just, from what I perceive, often they do it for the wrong reasons ; D But hey, I’m not a feeler, and if I’m wrong I’m ok with that! Either way, its a side note ; D “I did because I wanted to take them, not because I felt insecure.” ok cool *shrugs* maybe I’m wrong : D”
O.K. This here, being driven out of fear or emotional need is a problem for anyone. Feelers may be more inclined to do something out of fear or emotional need, and watching your INFP friend perhaps has given you a very bad taste in your mouth for this. Yes, they can often do things out of emotional reasoning, but they can accomplish much because they genuinely want to. Especially the ENFP. The majority of things I choose to invest energy into, I have to want to do it in order to finish. I am actually a person who is generally far out of being in sync with most people my age and don’t care what they think of me because I hardly think highly of them. I am a hard worker and high achiever because I want to be, not out of fear of not being accepted or emotional need.
Oh boy… Well, I’m going to get a kick watching INTJs try to give a good explanation of emotion!! XD
Emotion… emotion… Umm….
I don’t want to sound ridiculous, but emotion is what you feel. Everybody has that. Emotion more or less is the reaction to everything. Like, your body responds to what it feels. If you burn your hand, you feel pain. If you curl up in a fuzzy blanket with a cup of hot tea, it feels good. Your emotions are your mental responses.
P.S. My best friend has been following this conversation and quote,
“Tell him I’ve been stalking him and think his arguments are pish posh.”
*Winks at the Tolkien Friend*
Tek an ohta! Tek an cala!April 13, 2019 at 8:45 pm #86385
@ericawordsmith: “Is mercy rational or irrational? Is it irrational to sacrifice for the sake of love?” no mercy is not ‘irrational’ ; D
“And we also know that God feels emotion, otherwise, why did Jesus weep?” eh, that logic is flawed… Jesus was God incarnate; by that reasoning we can say “we know God was midestern”! Still, I don’t nessisarly disagree, I’m working on figuring it out ; D
“We don’t agree because I believe any MBTI type can have exemplary behavior, and though the cognitive functions help” uh, isnt that what I just said XD clearly if the funtions help that makes them supperior! lets say you want to win a race and thus get a streamlined car with all the latest gear. Now, a trash car COULD win the race, simply based ont eh skill of its driver, but the more advanced car is still clearly superior ; D
“Feelers may be more inclined to do something out of fear or emotional need” cool then we agree! : D
“but emotion is what you feel” ya its a bit more complicated then that XD I might write a paper soon but untill that point I’ll just be content ; D
“Tell him I’ve been stalking him and think his arguments are pish posh.” XD *roles his eyes*
INTJ- trying to grow into real wisdom; James 3:17April 14, 2019 at 11:37 am #86395
Ok guys, I’m super sorry, but I’ve got to drop out of this debate… I know, I know, I’m the one who asked for it but what i didnt take int consiteration is how little time I now have! in the past, I would have loved this, but right now I serisouly dont have time and I having to sacrifise other things just to do this (and even then my respones have been WAY too hasty ; D) So ya, I appologise again but I really have to go… : / Sorry!
INTJ- trying to grow into real wisdom; James 3:17
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