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Hey guys! I hope everyone had a very Merry Christmas!
Okay, so can we make the deadline Tuesday night instead? That way everyone has more time to join if they want to (including me)😛
@erynne It’d be awesome if you could join! I think I’ll be one of the contestants, and Emily and Joshua will be the judges. @Emma-walker and @winter_rose might join too. Let me know if you have any more questions!Again … I’m sorry I missed this.
I’m okay. (:
I am broken. I am bleeding .... But I am beautiful.
Sorry I responded late!
I don’t think I’ll be participating and it looks like enough people are willing to be judges, so I’ll just leave this one to you guys.
Maybe change the deadline and possibly the prompt so that some pieces are submitted?
What I know in my head and what I believe in my heart are two entirely different things.
OH I DIDN’T RESPOND TO YOU EARLIER @K-A-GREY!!!!!!!
Yes, I’m willing to help if you’d like! I’m interested in some of these issues myself, so I’m curious to see how you presented them in fiction. I should probably let you know beforehand though, that I consider myself to be very conservative in my beliefs, so if I don’t eye-to-eye with you on some topics, I’ll still try to be respectful of your stances. And yes, I agree that lgbtq people should be treated with respect and dignity as human beings, even if we don’t agree with their beliefs. As a Christian, I can’t condone their behavior, but I’m not gonna blast them all to H-E-double-hockey-sticks either. I think this community needs to be reached with God’s love if they’re ever going to see who God created and designed them to be. This community seems to have a lot of confused, hurting people who don’t know who they are anymore, because the world tells them they can be anything, while at the same time pressuring them to become something they were never meant to be. As for representing these people in fiction, I think great care needs to be taken when writing from a Christian perspective. I don’t think they should be held up as our role models, but I also think that done carefully, they can show the brokenness of humanity and our need for a Savior just as much as any other character regardless of gender identity, race, etc. Because we all need Jesus.
Totally noted! I’ve gotten a lot of different perspectives to read my drafts to “test everything, accept what is true” or something like that I’m really bad at remembering verses XDD. *Also spent a stupid amount of time not getting H-E double hockeysticks. EVEN THO I’VE USED THAT EXPRESSION BEFORE!!!!*
I totally get your perspective that they shouldn’t be held up as role models but just think a moment: no one’s ever fazed when we have an MC that’s a bounty-hunter, assassin, playboy, vixen, etc any time of serious sinful behavior/profession because it’s normalized or we anticipate a character arc that’ll change that, and we love these antiheroes like Han Solo who was canonically a drug dealer in StarWars. But we get scared when there’s an openly queer character, but what about Peppermint Patty in the Peanuts? She was my favorite character (ok I can’t decide between her and Snoopy!) in the Peanuts and had huge nonbinary vibes and her friend, Marci, respected that and called her ‘sir ‘(*pls pls tell me I wasn’t the only bewildered little kid wondering whether it was ‘safe’ to ship her and Marci instead of her and Charlie Brown XDDDDD*)
So, I don’t really think it’s so much that we wanna take so much care with representation or not want a queer character as a role mole as much as we don’t want to fall in love with a character and feel guilty about it because that character’s actions are condoned and they’re so fun and identifiable we hardly even want them to change. I think that’s what most people are against more.
With my characters I want there to be a clear distinction between action and identity; accepting who they are, not what they do about it. I want my queer characters to be very identifiable and loveable because who would you rather listen to: someone who demands you change and hold up to the same bar as everyone else or someone who says ‘I understand what you’re going through and that you can’t be like everyone else, I want you to be the best you you can be but don’t do this because this is better for you.’? I love how Jesus became Man and human in everything but sin and I want to give that kind of representation for queer people; not what not to do but what you can do and still be Christian, and why these things aren’t right.
So, among other things, that’s what I’d like to convey; it might seem best at first but there’s a lot of consequences and there is a better way. Did you know lgbtq+ is more common with people who are on the Asperger’s’/Autistic Spectrum or ADHD or something neurodiverse like that? It makes it almost, if not entirely, impossible to connect the same way as other people and that’s a thing that’s gotta be addressed. They can’t connect like other people and that makes them outcast in most circles of society and society’s lazy and tells them to just announce their gender and sexuality or whatever to conform as close as possible and they’re never given a better option; that’s the best they can expect by society’s terms all too often!
So there’s gonna be a give and a take with that representation in my story…XD
ANYWAY-! XDDDDDD
I’m gonna need my next set of beta readers starting Nov 7, 2022 I think. But I a lot of people get inactive on SE when things get crazy and I’m gonna use a “email chapter by chapter updates as I write” system, so do you want to email me at fantasywriter2018@outlook.com now so I have your email, or see where things stand for you by November and hand me your email then if you still like the idea?
To be a light to the world you must shine in the darkness.
Oh my word, guys, I’m so sorry, I haven’t been on here for like a week!
@winter_rose I think the prompt is fine, everyone was just busy. Yeah, maybe we can extend the deadline to Wednesday? I still want to join if someone else does too.
@this-is-not-an-alien I actually agree with a lot of what you said.So what I meant by role model is that I don’t think they should be held up as an “exemplary” model. What I mean by that is that they aren’t heroes that we want to pattern our own lives after. For example, Jay Gatsby is an antihero. He’s basically a deceiving, bootlegging, adulterer but somehow we still find an emotional connection to the character. We know he’s doomed from the start but somehow we still want him to succeed and we feel sorry when the consequences of his actions lead to his destruction. But we wouldn’t really say we want to <i>be </i>like him. He’s a flawed character. And that’s exactly what a flawed character portrays, is the flaws of human nature. Now someone like Robin Hood is where I have some issues with. He’s a thief, but hey, he’s a good thief! He only steals from the rich to give back to the poor! But does that really make stealing right? Yeah, he dies in the end, but he dies a hero. We don’t really see the true consequences of his behavior or any remorse for wrongdoing; the law, which is portrayed as the “bad guys” was just “out to get him,” and he got unlucky. (I’m referring to the original book by the way, I haven’t watched any adaptions or anything😅). As a kid, I loved the swashbuckling romance of Robin Hood. The cool archery and sword fighting, the cheekiness of Robin, the camaraderie of the merry men. But what kind of message does it send? Yeah, the characters are cool, but there isn’t much of a positive message except maybe friends stick together and it’s okay to steal as long as it’s not for yourself.
So that was what I meant by “role model.” A good author makes the reader feel emotionally connected to the MC. But when a character is “morally ambiguous,” does it at least cause us to think about our own morals, or do we brush it off because we like the character enough to think it’s okay? I definitely don’t think all characters should be squeaky clean to be a good “role model.” But do we view them as role models simply because they’re cool or different, or is there some underlying quality that makes us look up to them? If they’re flawed, do they portray an accurate representation of human nature, or are the flaws viewed as something to be emulated?
You said here
So, I don’t really think it’s so much that we wanna take so much care with representation or not want a queer character as a role mole as much as we don’t want to fall in love with a character and feel guilty about it because that character’s actions are condoned and they’re so fun and identifiable we hardly even want them to change. I think that’s what most people are against more.
which might be a better way of saying what I said above, just phrased a little differently. I don’t really have a problem with a queer or morally ambiguous character, but I do have a problem with an author presenting sinful behavior as “okay,” for whatever reason. I can love the person, the character, but when bad behavior is condoned or repeatedly shown to have no consequences, that’s where I start to have problems.
I also like what you said here:
With my characters I want there to be a clear distinction between action and identity; accepting who they are, not what they do about it. I want my queer characters to be very identifiable and loveable because who would you rather listen to: someone who demands you change and hold up to the same bar as everyone else or someone who says ‘I understand what you’re going through and that you can’t be like everyone else, I want you to be the best you you can be but don’t do this because this is better for you.’? I love how Jesus became Man and human in everything but sin and I want to give that kind of representation for queer people; not what not to do but what you can do and still be Christian, and why these things aren’t right.
@this-is-not-an-alien Also, I’ll save your email in my contacts. I don’t want to hand out my email right now because I don’t know how busy I’ll be in November, or if I’ll still be active on Story Embers, but I’m still interested right now.
Also, do you have any book recommendations that represent queer characters from a Christian perspective? Or otherwise done tastefully? Most of the books I see recommended in my library, from the book summaries, seem focus more on “coming out” or on finding a relationship, which is why I’ve never picked them up, or even thought about how they can be represented in Christian fiction.
@this-is-not-an-alien Sorry to keep spamming this thread with my random thoughts.😂 but I just wanted to say this conversation has really made me think about this topic, and I’m still trying to sort out my thoughts about representing it in fiction. I’ve thought about more about the topic with how it pertains to real life, but not really how to present it in fiction. I found this article by a priest (im not Catholic, but I found his ideas thought-provoking) about some questions to ask oneself before writing queer characters: https://rcspirituality.org/ask_a_priest/ask-a-priest-is-it-ok-to-write-a-novel-with-gay-characters/
I’d love to have your thoughts on it too!
Ok! Yeah, I totally get that, like condoning their character flaws is just ugh, but I love antiheros! Also…you read the Great Gatsby, oh honey I’m so sorry!!
So that was what I meant by “role model.” A good author makes the reader feel emotionally connected to the MC. But when a character is “morally ambiguous,” does it at least cause us to think about our own morals, or do we brush it off because we like the character enough to think it’s okay? I definitely don’t think all characters should be squeaky clean to be a good “role model.” But do we view them as role models simply because they’re cool or different, or is there some underlying quality that makes us look up to them? If they’re flawed, do they portray an accurate representation of human nature, or are the flaws viewed as something to be emulated?
Bingo! Totally agree there
Also, I’ll save your email in my contacts. I don’t want to hand out my email right now because I don’t know how busy I’ll be in November, or if I’ll still be active on Story Embers, but I’m still interested right now.
Ok! That’s fair 😉
Also, do you have any book recommendations that represent queer characters from a Christian perspective? Or otherwise done tastefully? Most of the books I see recommended in my library, from the book summaries, seem focus more on “coming out” or on finding a relationship, which is why I’ve never picked them up, or even thought about how they can be represented in Christian fiction.
I really, really haven’t seen a lot of Christian books that do this and it kinda frustrates me but I get why they don’t. There is some homosexuality handled from a Christian perspective in the Shadow of the Bear series, especially the last book Waking Rose. In one of my favorite TV series, Person of Interest, they introduce an aromantic girl named Shaw in one of the later series and she was one of my absolute favorite characters and I loved her and there was another morally ambiguous character, Root, who was lesbian and had a fantastic slow-burn redemption arc and it was handled nicely and added subtly to her character while eliminating the fear of cheesy romance with her teammates in an action/adventure but then like they shipped her and Shaw in the last season and that was just…no. (Especially hurt my sister who’d been shipping Shaw with Detective Fasco for several seasons)
The last season was still worth watching if you skip a couple episodes coz the ending episodes really hit their themes and the character arcs were just *Italian chief’s kiss* But anyway, Root was a lesbian character who was handled very tastefully up to the last season or two and one of the lead actors is Christian so even with so many morally ambiguous characters it had some very, very good themes and rose a lot of deep moral questions, plus shoot ’em up bang ’em up mystery-thriller! (dang I need to go back and rewatch it it was great!)
But aside from that, really I’m fairly disappointed I haven’t seen a lot of Christian queer representation in media *sigh*
Sorry to keep spamming this thread with my random thoughts.😂 but I just wanted to say this conversation has really made me think about this topic, and I’m still trying to sort out my thoughts about representing it in fiction. I’ve thought about more about the topic with how it pertains to real life, but not really how to present it in fiction. I found this article by a priest (im not Catholic, but I found his ideas thought-provoking) about some questions to ask oneself before writing queer characters: https://rcspirituality.org/ask_a_priest/ask-a-priest-is-it-ok-to-write-a-novel-with-gay-characters/
Oh sweet! My little Catholic heart sings for joy!!
Ok, I’m a little busy right now but I swear I’m gonna get back to you on this one, I just want to take the time to unpack what he’s got here and how I want to present my own characters and kinda break that down…please yell at me if I don’t get back to you by the 14th I really would love to discuss more 🙂
To be a light to the world you must shine in the darkness.
@this-is-not-an-alien Oh, cool! I didn’t know you were Catholic, so that’s perfect!😃
Hmm, Shadow of the Bear. Sounds interesting, I’ll check it out,thanks!
Ok, so that was a long time. Idk if you even still remember but I promised to give my thoughts on the article about queer representation so I’m finally back now, I swear I’ve been working on it this whole time just really slowly in corners and pockets of time between…*”stuff”* 😒. But anyway! Sorry for the delay and lemmie just jump in.
Alright, so he brings up a lot of valid questions about how to contextually deliver. And I really love that he really seems to have thought about this and doesn’t give the easy way out like “oh if you have this, this and this you should be ok.” or “oh no, you can’t do that at all.” So he’s great and I think he raises two major questions regarding this which are: A. Are we–individually–capable of handling the subject in a Christian way? and B. Will we?
Now this, I’m not writing about queer characters because I just sat down and said “I wanna write about queer characters”; It’s something that’s just been in my heart, that needs a voice because it’s stuck in my brain and something I’m forced to confront, so I need answers for me and doing that in my characters is a good way to get them. So a definitely feel very called to dig deeply into these themes.
If I’m honest, I’m not capable of handling this subject. I have more questions than answers and more hurt and help. But I’ll be praying and working this through, I don’t know how but this is what I feel is on my soul to write and part of my vocation and calling. So I can’t but I have to, and if I trust in God then He’ll provide. I can’t handle this topic in a Christian way, but I plan to 🙂
But that said, I’m not going to give easy answers either in my book. I believe these actions are wrong, and I want to now just know but really understand why so I want to get into what’s happening, what’s going on inside their heads, why and what are the consequences?
I want to show both the brokenness and the uniqueness of people who embrace this lifestyle and there are a lot of factors I’m going to explore but I put most of them into one of two categories: What are the physical consequences and what are the psychological consequences? It’s gonna be hard for me to get into detail just generalizing so I’m going to use one of my most obviously queer characters as a model for my thought-process here:
Sloane: gender-fluid shapeshifter taken in by a nonhumanoid race. Not only has she not been exposed to a lot of fellow human beings but she is also one of those very very very rare girls who was born with one green eye, her other eye is blue. Thematically, and loosely speaking, the green eye represents masculinity and the blue eye represents femineity (or did I make it brown or gold in one of my revisions…?). This is because culturally, green eyes are very strongly associated with a male trickster who was a shapeshift–long story blahblahblah (this means I don’t actually know the story is yet XDD)–but he was cursed, blessed, affected whatever so that in the entire world only the first born sons are ever supposed to have green eyes and nobody else. Is that story true or false? Idk idc; she has this about her that’s appears exclusively male even tho she’s a girl so what does that make her?
1. Physical consequences:
Lemmie just start here with gender dysphoria and how it works and effects people. I really don’t know how common this is but; have you ever looked in the mirror and felt like the person you saw was a stranger to you? This is one of the most common first experiences of dysphoria (aaand also a symptom of depression but that’s another rant!) It happens more often with people who experience gender confusion. I think about 60% or so of adolescents who experience gender dysphoria grow out of it eventually and my dysphoria has gotten better over the years to the point were I’m just about out of it probably, but I also know people who that just didn’t happen and they still have to deal.
But ANYWAY, returning to the mirror, as a shapeshifter Sloane can really struggle to figure out her born gender. Of course animal forms and forms she can assume of other races don’t “click” with her, but in the mirror she can “recognize” herself in both male, female and gender-ambiguous forms, but only during certain periods of time: sometimes she identifies with the male form sometimes the female etc.
Logically, she is aware of the fact that she was born female. Physically, she still menstruates in her female form, but if she shifts form the male body isn’t capable of menstruation which is something one of my friends pointed out to me and I really need to do some research on that aspect—(Update; just spent 30 min looking that up and I am intrigued, especially with gender-fluid there’s a lot of stress-postponement of period, like it’s fairly common for them to physically skip periods every so often without meaning to just because the body reacted to all the dysphoric-pressure maybe or maybe weird periods helped with dysphoria. Periods are VERY stressful for most trans-people (go figure) and especially physically painful. I actually don’t experience any real emotional instability or physical pain in most of my periods–but when I do it’s horrific and constant. And also, ALL the genderfluid people on that post were either bisexual or asexual, and I recently read about guys wanting to change gender because they were gay and didn’t want that stigma and I’ve often wondered whether my asexuality contributed to my gender dysphoria…interesting side-thread, could be nothing it was just that one site on a Google search so honestly…)
But ANYWAY! Any hormonal surgeries to stop menstruations are incredibly dangerous, for example using the testosterone makes you especially pone to injury and bleeding not even to MENTION the psychological damage of excessive and multigendered hormones when the hormones of ONE gender is hard enough to manage. However there’s also a bit of a movement in the queer community to stay as healthy as they can with their choices and retain the ability to nurse and menstruate while presenting as male. But it does affect dysphoria etc and I wonder how Sloane will handle it since she can probably delay or even skip entirely periods on occasion and how will that affect her body…??
Soo that’s one physical consequence I’m going to explore, because it’s a big deal in the lgbtq+ community, especially in the trans part of it and it’s not really thought about by people who don’t experience or know of someone who’s experienced dysphoria.
So that’s an example of my approach to that I guess…
2. What are the psychological consequences?
Again with Sloane, her situation when the story starts is that she has been betrothed to the crown prince of Hesgmarde to seal an alliance (which is…kinda funn coz he’s literally like the only completely straight character in the book 😀 XDDDDD) and they hate each other on sight and all. She investigates murders he investigates his brother’s disappearance and eventually they find out they’re investigating the same thing and have to work together lotsa fun they eventually learn to respect each other as people and develop a good working relationship but whatever back to consequence:
Politically, the fairly-recently-established council support Sloane’s lifestyle, at least officially. But socially, there’s still a lot of actual discrimination because I’ve researched this and seen it and gonna call it what it is even if I disagree with their choices that’s no cause for all the hate spat around. Aside from that, many people can’t quite see them as actual people because it’s so strange and foreign to someone who’s never experienced that on a personal level.
And another thing I’ll be exploring is how people treat her differently according to the gender she presents and how much of a factor in her fluidity that is, not to mention social pressures and gender expectations. I want to explore how much of this is intrinsically part of her internal makeup? How much is symptomatic of a much deeper set of conditions and circumstances? How does she stay true to her identity, and how much of this is part of her identity now? How does that grow into a more healthy outlet for how she is and who she is?
As someone who generally feels like both genders at once, it’s a very personal exploration for me, and something I don’t want to easy-answer out of. And I’ll also be exploring sexuality and romantic love which is very strange to me as an asexual girl and often makes me feel dysphoric. My story is dealing with trauma and being dehumanized, and it’s about recovery and realistically defining and realizing true love. I want to look at ways queer people can cope, change and grow.
Like, for instance, calling people “bro” or “man” has helped me integrate the more masc aspects of my personality with myself as a girl so I accept it as part of me even if it’s different. And also, manga and anime really helps too, idk why but maybe it’s just loud and colorful with loud personalities that aren’t confined to any one gender but still with characters that have a clear sense of identity even if they break gender stereotypes. Also there’s a lot more asexual MCs in manga and that’s really nice, I struggle to relate to a lot of characters but manga characters tend to be a lot more relatable to me. So telling myself I’ve got an anime character aesthetic makes me more comfortable as a girl but then also I’m sure ya’ll have seen this where you can only tell a manga character’s gender because of the pronouns used and every character acts like their gender is completely obvious, that’s funny but also comforting in a way.
Actually now that I’m thinking of it, I haven’t actually read the manga yet but my brother got me to watch the anime episodes of the first season and it had a lot of characters that casually broke gender stereotypes like the MC could cook better than his love interest who was loud and hotheaded and they balanced each other out nicely while still having a clear sense of gender identity she was very obviously a girl he was very obviously a boy and they were very comfortable in their own skin. It’s Rurouni Kensen, I loved it, you gotta work through how dorky the first part of it is but when it reaches *that point* 🤩
One of the villains was trans and that was handled well to me. But I LOVED THE THEMESSSSS IT WAS SOO GOOD THE MC IS AN EX-ASSASSIN TEACHING EVERYONE THE VALUE OF HUMAN LIFE AND HE WEARS A REVERSE BLADE THAT CAN’T KILL ANYONE BECAUSE THE SHARP END FACES HIM AND THAT’S SO SYMBOLIC ADN THEN HE HAS TO LEARN THAT EVEN HIS OWN LIFE IS SACRED TOO AND HOW DEEPLY THE THEMES WERE HANDLED AHHHHHHHHHHHHH 🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩
Anyway, great anime GREAT characters SUPER FANTASTIC EPIC THEMES!!!! I was so invested in those characters…
*sigh*
Anyway, those are some of my thoughts on writing queer depictions and all…I think I rambled a lot lol 😂
To be a light to the world you must shine in the darkness.
Hi everyone! I’m new to Story Embers, but this looks great and fun! I’d love to join if that’s okay.
Heywire is the best kind of wire.
Hi everyone! I’m new to Story Embers, but this looks great and fun! I’d love to join if that’s okay.
Oh absolutely! Jump right in! Although warning: this forum hasn’t been particularly actively lately 😂
I was just replying to a bit of discussion on portraying lgbtq+ characters in fics and there should be a 24-48 hr prompt-challenge but nobody’s submitted a prompt and tagged someone for the challenge yet (to tag somebody you just copy the @-tag under the profile name idk if you already know that but you said you were new so…XD): you give a prompt and tag somebody who has to respond within 48 hours to compete then ya’ll both select judges, there should be at least three judges that agree to judge but these are all loose rules made to be broken 😉
I’m Cathy and I’m crazy. Do you like throwing knifes? 🙂
To be a light to the world you must shine in the darkness.
@this-is-not-an-alien Heyyyyy! This felt like ages ago.😂 I haven’t been on Story Embers for like a month?😬 So if I accidentally ghosted someone I apologize.
Okay, so I loved what you had to say here:
But that said, I’m not going to give easy answers either in my book. I believe these actions are wrong, and I want to now just know but really understand why so I want to get into what’s happening, what’s going on inside their heads, why and what are the consequences?
I want to show both the brokenness and the uniqueness of people who embrace this lifestyle and there are a lot of factors I’m going to explore but I put most of them into one of two categories: What are the physical consequences and what are the psychological consequences?
I think that you have a great approach! I like how you try to accurately portray not only their lifestyle but also the consequences behind their behavior and also the emotions and decisions that led up to that. You seem to also have thought out the fantasy system and the characters really well.
I think your goal is writing in this story is a beautiful, worthwhile effort. Instead of writing about queer characters just to be writing about them, or trying to push an agenda, it’s exploring humanity that is often broken and messy to the point people don’t want to look at it. But broken people need hope in a Savior, and we need books that give at least a tiny glimpse of that.
Heyyyyy! This felt like ages ago.😂 I haven’t been on Story Embers for like a month?😬 So if I accidentally ghosted someone I apologize.
Oh dang ikr?!? I started collage this year so I’ve barely been on StoryEmbers for the longest 🙄 (In fact I am procrastinating assignments as we speak…😂)
I think that you have a great approach! I like how you try to accurately portray not only their lifestyle but also the consequences behind their behavior and also the emotions and decisions that led up to that. You seem to also have thought out the fantasy system and the characters really well.
Thanks, I really hope to!!! I hope it’s really something that challenges and inspires people to change, people on every side of the issue…
I think your goal is writing in this story is a beautiful, worthwhile effort. Instead of writing about queer characters just to be writing about them, or trying to push an agenda, it’s exploring humanity that is often broken and messy to the point people don’t want to look at it. But broken people need hope in a Savior, and we need books that give at least a tiny glimpse of that.
Yessss!!! It’s a topic so many people avoid and see as strange and “other”, to the point where it’s hard to even see that these are real people who need the same hope and love that we do, who bleed just the same and care just as deeply. I really, really want my story to make a difference not just a stance 💔❤️
To be a light to the world you must shine in the darkness.
Thanks! That info is very helpful! 👍
And yes! I love throwing knives! I own at least ten knives myself! Not a whole lot, but hey, it’s a start. I’m also saving up for a sword cane!
Heywire is the best kind of wire.
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