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Hey all!
I haven’t been in here in a long time!!
Anyway, the romantic interest character in my story is one of the more “mama’s boy” type characters, but I’m not sure how to go about making that realistically. I want him to have that kind of personality, and be one of those quieter, polite, super nice guys but I also don’t want him to be unrealistically perfect or too effeminate, if you know what I mean??
Any help or tips would be appreciated!
This is perhaps the greatest risk any of us will ever take: to be seen as we truly are.
I’ve known some guys who fit that description and are still definitely masculine, and in trying to break it down I think the main thing is that they do a good job of filling their biblical role as men. They do exemplify gentleness and self-control, they’re polite, but they’re also protectors, they’re not afraid to do the hard things, they often end up leading–not necessarily because they try or they even want to lead (though they might, on either count), but because people choose to follow them due to their care for people and their work ethic and that sort of thing. One can be gentle without being soft, and quiet while still being strong. The trick is figuring out how to show that subtle strength, and I’ll admit that’s often easier said than done and it’s not something I can readily break down and describe, unfortunately. 😛
I don’t know if that was helpful, but hopefully it provides a bit of a starting point? This can definitely be a tricky balance to accomplish with a character, but it’s honestly one of my favorite character types, lol.
Speculative fiction author. Mythology nerd. Worldbuilding enthusiast. Singer. Fan of classic literature.
Thanks that was actually very helpful! I’ll try to incorporate some of those ideas. It’s one of my favorite character types too😉
This is perhaps the greatest risk any of us will ever take: to be seen as we truly are.
Awesome! I’m glad it helped. 🙂
Speculative fiction author. Mythology nerd. Worldbuilding enthusiast. Singer. Fan of classic literature.
I want him to have that kind of personality, and be one of those quieter, polite, super nice guys but I also don’t want him to be unrealistically perfect or too effeminate if you know what I mean??
That’s a familiar problem XD For some reason, it’s always the love interest too for me… XD
I think something that might help is incongruity! You already established a ‘base personality’ for him, but it always helps to give characters a trait that seems to clash with the rest of their personality.
So, maybe he’s a very gentle, soft-spoken person, but he has a hobby or habit that seems to contradict that. Or there’s one specific thing that really makes him mad, this could be backstory-related. Once you have that thing, try to figure out why.
People are incongruous, and it always makes characters more interesting.
Something else that I really enjoy reading and writing are characters who are gentle, not because it comes naturally to them, but because they deliberately try to be that way. Maybe he naturally tends toward some flaw, but he works on not letting it get the best of him.
Something else that helps is letting your characters really mess up. It’s a part of writing to make life hard for your characters. If you establish a flaw, let it get the best of your character and make it ruin or complicate something, and then let them acknowledge that and apologize and fix it.
It’s something that always makes a character more likable to me if they actually put effort into recognizing their mistakes and fixing it.
Hope this helped!
Without darkness, there is no light. If there was no nighttime, would the stars be as bright?
Hi Grace (@gbfruitbat)
Just curious, how is it that only girls answered this question.
Perhaps, because us guys thought it was about “Beta” males. 😆
“Mama’s boy” has a derogative connotation. Kind of like saying a guy is a “sissy”.
We can love our mom’s but not be diminished by that. The idea is men have an idea of what honor is and what respect looks like, and it is often not something girls think about. A man wants the respect of other men, but he also is designed by God to want the admiration of women. It’s a two-fold part, but he craves both at the same time. When another man calls a male a “mama’s boy” it is meant as something disrespectful. “Them’s fightin’ words” you may have heard it said. In our modern society, popular opinion has redefined what “maleness should look like”. Often times some “faith denominations” take umbrage with the idea of the traditional male and try to idealism the soft-spoken effete, rather than allow that boys tend to like to be thought of as tough, stoic, protective, resolute, competitive leaders. They like playing rough and tumble games. They like showing feats of strength, speed, and prowess. They like proving themselves against physical tests of stamina. These have female equivalencies, but not to the extent that males pursue them. Men crave respect more than relationships. They want to be perceived as courageous, weathered, rugged, and proven reliable in a contest of might or wills. And deeply ingrained in us is the desire to protect others and feel needed in that.
Too often homes have young males that grow up without positive male role models. Men that would teach them a code of chivalry, and honor. Teach them to provide for those in their care and the value of an honest day’s wage for an honest day’s work vested with sweat equity. How to work a field so that it can yield a harvest. How to keep the machines running and in good condition, with a working understanding of what components are needed when and where on an engine, and how to diagnose system problems before they strand someone on a lonely road. How to change a tire. Why a young man is to open a door, and give a lady his seat rather than make her stand. It’s all about how the young man was raised to recognize his own role and the expectations placed upon him to gain the respect that is part of his need. Tap into those things and you may better understand what motivates a male.
I hope that helps.Brian Stansell (aka O'Brian of the Surface World)
I was born in war.
Fighting from my first breath.I find this topic very interesting after spending a couple years researching lgbtq+ and neurodiversity, and trying to figure out what makes up a “male brain” and a “female brain” and what’s just societal pressures and conventions. This one’s very important to me because I struggled with identity as a female growing up and wanted to be genderless or bi-gender even tho I was comfortable with my body I just wanted to be treated like a person first.
It’s really interesting to me, like Mr Brian pointed out guys tend to want respect over relationships and I grew up wanting to be “part of the pack” and earn respect first and it was only in my teens that I started to value relationships over respect, and I still act kinda masc a lot.
I connected with guys a lot more than girls growing up and scorned “girly stuff” but really wanted/and still do to protect girls and kids in more traditionally masculine ways like in fistfights and I like holding doors open for people and standing for gals. And I still don’t shave my legs unless my mom tells me to.
Conversely, I made friends with a boy (duly note at ages 4-9 I befriended boys by tackling them to assert dominance, don’t judge) who was very soft-mannered and enjoyed insulting me (I thought it was hilarious) and he never fought, I always got the sense he was bullied a lot for it and that made pretty bitter but he always avoided showing his emotions. So he provoked people to “assert dominance” which is something more associated with girls than boys just like not wanting to fight.
And neurodiverse people tend to really act outside of usual gender norms, and be bullied for it. If your character is artistic they’re twice as likely to break gender-norms…I think. I got a scholarship for being a girl in a guy-dominated field of graphic design and most of the guys there love pink so…🤷♀️
Growing up I always related to the guys more than the girls in action-adventure movies and that contributed a lot to my dysphoria, so now I make a point of giving every single one of my characters 1 trait that’s typically associated with the other gender and my biggest priority is to design a person first and then address their gender and how it affects their personality. One of my most popular characters, Ehud and Rosario, gender-flip the popular trope “Pink Girl with a Crush” and “Tall, Dark and Handsome” with Ehud being the cute, bubbly emotionally-attuned one and Rosario being the tough, strong and closed-off one.
But even with their completely flipped roles that I really embraced, the further on I got the more I noticed Ehud is attracted to her ability to fight and that’s something he spends the entire story trying to obtain; the ability to fight in his own way and that kinda ties to what Mr Brian was talking about with respect and being competitive. And Rosario had a very strong motherly attraction to Ehud, and she was competitive and wanted respect but she wanted primarily to have the necessary strength to preserve the good in her life more than she wanted it for its own sake.
So…what I’ve seen with real gender differences is…just something very hard to label. Men often prioritize physically defending and expanding assets while women prioritize defending consequence-mindedly and preserving good. But…especially neurodiverse people kinda seem to flip that on its head a lot so I really don’t know…how to articulate this very clear idea I’ve got in my head that’s really nuanced!!!!!
And no one can define gender mentally, we just gotta stick with the shape of your reproductive system to define that because any other hard rule you try to tag somebody’s gonna be an exception to it.
So. In conclusion. I have no clue what I’m talking about but this was fun 😝
So just write a person and worry about gender later, if you try to hard EVERYONE CAN SENSE IT AND IT FEELS CONSTRUED!!! Like, we’re talking about different genders here not different species…🤷♀️
Yo @noah-cochran, you’re actually a guy, what do you think? 🙃
To be a light to the world you must shine in the darkness.
I had decided not to comment on this, but I can’t very well refuse a tag from Cathy. 🙃
I think the main point of Grace’s question was answered ably enough, so I’m going to focus on what you spoke of, Cathy: what differentiates men and women
First off, and I’m sure you believe this but I always find it prudent to mention it, the bible defines the two sexes (or genders if one prefers the word). In the beginning, he created them male and female (Genesis 1:27 I believe). Thus, there is clearly two sexes, no more, no less, and as the bible further expounds on, each sex has its own roles. Not only does the bible teach this, but God teaches us it directly through nature (observing mammals for instance).
Now, the question comes, what makes males and females different? Several things, the simplest of which is science (anatomy and reproduction), and requires no further expounding on (unless one is has lost their mind like half our country right now xD). However, it seemed to me that you (Cathy) were focusing more on emotional and behavioral facets of humankind that differentiate males and females. In regard to that, I would say the most important thing to understand is that most of these differentiations are believed due to inductive reasoning (i.e, generalizations). For instance, the claim that women are more emotional, soft, and trusting, may often be true, but it is not strictly true, and is not a true difference between men and women. However, suffice it to, due to the way God designed men and women’s bodies, hormones, and brains, many of the generalizations are, well, generally somewhat accurate.
I would say that the main differentiation that the bible (and thus God) gives men and women, are their roles. For instance, men were command to be leaders and provide for the home, women were commanded to tend the home and be industrious (tangent: I hate the stigma that claims the phrase ‘tend the home’ puts women in a boring, subservient place of caring for children and sweeping floors. That couldn’t be further from the truth). There is more to say on this, but I’ll stop there.
Finally, I would like to comment on the whole ‘men holding a door open for women’ thing. While men should be helpers and protectors of women, and be willing to sacrifice for them, I think that this mindset often causes people to miss the point. Women should be helpers and sacrifice their desire or time (or seat for that matter) as much as the next person. We are all commanded to help others and put others first, regardless of their sex.
Hopefully that made a modicum of sense.
How’s your life going?
I may need to clarify something that often gets misunderstood.
I very much agree with Noah (@noah-cochran) with the biblical standard is God’s design that works to the optimization of how He created the family to function.
I think there is a problem sometimes in how we as opposite genders treat each other with less respect and love than we ought to. Both men and women have certain natural propensities, however, that, by no means, implies that they do not have shared interests that might be relegated traditionally to one gender or another.Some girls are rough and tumble, and may work every bit as hard in manual labor in dirt and grime as any man, but that does not diminish their femininity. Women often worked the fields alongside the men. Remember the story of Ruth? Look at the industry and skill of the attributes of the Proverbs 31 woman. Many might find her skills far exceed that of what might have been once considered a “traditional role”, but she is learned, can assess the value of a field, has sharp merchant skills, has deft and honed craftsmanship in her production and appears to be such a compliment to her husband that the men of the city recognize her value, and hold her husband in high-respect enough to set in prominence at the gate of the city, because of her. She is praised as every bit his equal, and brings him honor and respect because of the kind of reputation she has and her management skill.
A female might often have a sense of caution and feeling about a person, that her husband might be considering doing business with, and that sense of what the relationship with that person portends might serve her husband well to heed her cautions. Even Pilate’s wife demonstrated that sense when her husband was debating about what to do with Jesus.
God intends both men and women to live with each other in harmony, not as competitors.
God does hold each gender accountable for certain roles which He put upon them.
God expects the male to be the physical protector in the home and occupy the defense role for those under his care. Jesus clearly refers to this role when He refers to the “strong man” in the following instances:
Or else how can one enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house. [Matthew 12:29 KJV]
No man can enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house. [Mark 3:27 KJV]
When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: [Luke 11:21 KJV]The scriptures also refer to the male role as “provider” in Paul’s admonition to Timothy:
But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel. [1 Timothy 5:8 KJV]
Biblically, “effeminate males” are listed as being among the “unrighteous practices” that God condemns and expects these practices to be no longer followed among those sanctified by Him.
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. [1 Corinthians 6:9-11 KJV]
But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; [Ephesians 5:3 KJV]
The presence of Jesus living within the hearts of His children will be evidenced by the turning away from detestable practices.
Men need to return to taking responsibility for what God expects them to be. Fathers that love, protect and provide for their families. That show a tender and understanding heart towards their wives, valuing them, respecting them, praising them and protecting them, not just physically but reputationally.
So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. [Ephesians 5:28 NKJV]
Husbands, love your wives and do not be bitter toward them. [Colossians 3:19 NKJV]
Husbands, likewise, dwell with [them] with understanding, giving honor to the wife, as to the weaker vessel, and as [being] heirs together of the grace of life, that your prayers may not be hindered. [1 Peter 3:7 NKJV]A man that pleases God will shepherd and lovingly put his wife in a place of honor, and be the spiritual leader in their home, not shirking his responsibility in faith, as he seeks to follow Christ’s example.
A man should love his children and encourage them in loving training desiring the best for them as defined by God’s standard, rather than that of the world.
And you, fathers, do not provoke your children to wrath, but bring them up in the training and admonition of the Lord. [Ephesians 6:4 NKJV]
Fathers, do not provoke your children, lest they become discouraged. [Colossians 3:21 NKJV]Train up a child in the way he should go, And when he is old he will not depart from it. [Proverbs 22:6 NKJV]
“You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, when you walk by the way, when you lie down, and when you rise up. [Deuteronomy 6:7 NKJV]
“You shall teach them to your children, speaking of them when you sit in your house, when you walk by the way, when you lie down, and when you rise up. [Deuteronomy 11:19 NKJV]A woman can either grant her husband the respected role of authority in the home, or undermine it.
She affirms his role as an act of respect. He affirms her as the cherished bride whom he will lay down his life for out of love and appreciation for her. They belong to each other in oneness as God joins them in matrimony, as long as they defer to Christ as the example they strive to honor first and foremost. This family forms the basis for mutual nuturing and the giving of each to the innate needs of the other.
To love his wife as his own body, the man must seek her best. The courtship depicted in the Song of Solomon shows the interplay of mutual love within the roles of each gender.
Both honor each other in feeling secure in mutual trust enough to confide in one another.
I think the worldly views of modernism have disrupted God’s design by pitting genders against one another. Satan is the dissembler and wants homes broken, and therefore society to crumble because it no longer has foundational adhesion.
A mother is as essential as a father for a child’s upbringing. There is a balance that is needed. A daughter needs to know what kind of man will treat her with the selfless love she needs to understand what she should seek in a prospective future mate. A young boy needs to learn how to defer and protect a woman, as he witnesses how his father treats his mother, so that he can model that behavior when he looks for a mate. From his mother, he needs to learn how she responds differently from how his father responds to life circumstances so that he can live with his future wife with an understanding that allows for differences in perspective from his own thinking.
Personalities differ from person to person, and these personality differences are too often relegated to definitions categorized by gender by mankind’s assumptions rather than God’s.
I absolutely loathe the biological males entering women’s sports to take unfair advantage of female competitors. I loathe the gender confusion promulgated by sexual perverts attempting to switch their genders. I loathe these cross-dressing males gaining access to young children to normalize their perversion under the guise of reading storybooks. These practices are detestable in God’s eyes, and I will not back down from that assertion.
I think women do need to learn to defend themselves but whatever means are necessary for we live in a brutal and fallen world. I have no patience for effeminate males, and I am wholly disgusted by their behaviors, for I look upon them as cowards, and irresponsible with regard to the roles God has called them too.
I believe a male should protect females, for they are essential to our survival as a society and a species, under God’s order. I think a woman should have confidence in her husband’s commitment to safeguarding her person, and that she knows that he will do his utmost to keep her and their children from harm.
I think a man is obligated to be obedient to hear from God daily, to seek His direction for the protection of his home, and to operate in accordance with a self-sacrificial love for those he is charged to protect.
I believe a male who strikes a woman, is no man at all and should be scorned by male society and punished for his actions.
Masculinity is not defined by women or by men themselves, but by the nature and character of what God sets before them in the example of his son. Christ gave His life as a ransom for His bride.
Brian Stansell (aka O'Brian of the Surface World)
I was born in war.
Fighting from my first breath.I agree with everything you guys are saying, but I do have a few thoughts I would love to add. One thing that I’ve noticed in some Christian circles is that there’s a focus on masculinity as our society defines it, but not as it’s defined in the Bible. I have had experiences with men who many Christians would define as extremely masculine by worldly standards (say, loves guns and football), but who neglect some of the masculine roles defined in the Bible. By contrast, there could be a man who loves shopping for clothes and cake decorating, but who takes on the masculine roles defined in the Bible. However, I think there are a lot of Christians who would still say that the first man is more masculine just because of his outward appearance and interests. It’s something that I’m still trying to unlearn myself, if I’m going to be completely honest. Some of the Christian men that I looked up to growing up had an extremely narrow, inaccurate, and often toxic idea of what masculinity is, and it really did damage my perception of both marriage and masculinity. It wasn’t until the past couple of years that God started to heal those wounds and show me that the things I saw were not good representations of Biblical masculinity.
@this-is-not-an-alien ugghhhh I’m neurodivergent too and I COMPLETELY understand what you’re talking about. It’s always frustrated me when people talked about how girls think, because that rarely applied to me and made me feel uncomfortable because I didn’t match that perception. It’s so incredibly isolating too. I’m not discounting these experiences for other girls, but I think it’s dangerous to solely lean on generalizations instead of getting to know a person for who they really are.I never knew that about Ehud and Rosario, but I can totally see it. I’m currently working on a genderflipped Snow White retelling, and there’s a little bit of a similar dynamic. Except, the girl is a 5’3″ powerhouse and “Snow White” himself is a gentle 6’5″ giant xD
But it’s interesting, even with the flipped dynamic you can still very much see the masculine and feminine roles. I think Skia is partially attracted to Basil because he’s the first person who sees her as worthy of protection (they’re both super soldiers being raised in a lab, and her division is a failed experiment of sorts, which is why she never grew past 5’3″). And I’ve noticed that Basil is always physically putting himself in between Skia and the lab staff, I think in an effort to protect her from the harm that was done to him. It makes me very soft :’)
*laughs as one fey*
Some girls are rough and tumble, and may work every bit as hard in manual labor in dirt and grime as any man, but that does not diminish their femininity.
Excellent point, I meant to mention that.
It wasn’t until the past couple of years that God started to heal those wounds and show me that the things I saw were not good representations of Biblical masculinity.
Amen to everything you said there! Guns, sports, strength, physical protection, patriotism, they are all glorified in a quite repugnant way. While physical protection of one’s wife and family is important and ordered by the bible, men seem to think the phrase ‘lay down one’s life’ only refers to taking the bullet, and then proceed to ignore what its much more relevant meaning is: meekness and sacrificing one’s wishes for others, humbleness. I just recently heard a fantastic sermon on what a biblical man is, and it runs along the lines of what you said. So once again, amen!
*Me: right before I fall asleep after my post* I better add I agree completely I just wanted to add another perspective to — *glances over forum* — encourage more thought provoking discussion…
It is possible I may have started something again.
I had decided not to comment on this, but I can’t very well refuse a tag from Cathy. 🙃
Absolutely you cannot! Now how goes with you in life?
🙂☕
I would say that the main differentiation that the bible (and thus God) gives men and women, are their roles. For instance, men were command to be leaders and provide for the home, women were commanded to tend the home and be industrious (tangent: I hate the stigma that claims the phrase ‘tend the home’ puts women in a boring, subservient place of caring for children and sweeping floors. That couldn’t be further from the truth). There is more to say on this, but I’ll stop there.
This is very true and everyone can agree on the generalities, but it’s very hard to pinpoint an exact emotional differentiations or perhaps attitude and priorities…or maybe what we really debate is exactly how a person is allowed to EXPRESS their masculinity/femininity. I do agree the man is the head of the house and the woman tends the home, and I think that’s the core of it, but I absolutely agree with @calidris society is so into the OUTWARD appearance and interests that we forget what really matters. How you treat fellow human beings is much more important than what you like or how strong you are. But there’s so many ways to express this and it’s very difficult to discern as a universal.
Finally, I would like to comment on the whole ‘men holding a door open for women’ thing. While men should be helpers and protectors of women, and be willing to sacrifice for them, I think that this mindset often causes people to miss the point. Women should be helpers and sacrifice their desire or time (or seat for that matter) as much as the next person. We are all commanded to help others and put others first, regardless of their sex.
On this topic I’d like to note 2 big things.
1. For me, if I’m in a group of girls and there’s less seats than people, we’ll all inevitably get into a fuss of offering the seats to each other until somebody wins the argument and forces everybody else to sit. If a buncha guys get together they’ll all be racing to get the seats and playful shoving will inevitably ensue. If I’m in a group of guys and there’s a limited number of seats I’m gonna deck anybody who tries to beat me to the seat coz I’ll be bullied coz I’m the female in a pack of males and I’d need to assert dominance to accepted into the pack. Conversely if there was another girl there I’d deck anybody who tried to take the seat first and give it to her to assert I’ll be her protector if the males won’t.
So, personally, if a guy provides a seat for me this gives me the assurance that I can depend on him to defend me without having to prove I’m stronger than every guy and all of them attacking at once. Because being a woman around guys means you don’t just have to live up to both girl standards and guys standards but you also have to be tougher than all of them together because they’ll all pick on you at once until you assert dominance. Buuut-
2. That one way-older-than-me dude from church who was interested in me when I was thirteen would’ve absolutely used the gentleman role to his advantage in that situation to push me into a seated position which would put me at a huge fighting disadvantage and a psychological sense of subservience.
So traditional gestures of gentlemenship provide security to females but are very easy to abuse as well especially if the woman in question is unfamiliar with men and just perceives the nice action that makes them feel safe. Because of course, GENERALLY, women are less muscular and more interested in being loved than respected so not as likely to quite as assertive, but I trust by now it’s obvious I don’t experience any such deficiency of assertiveness ;P (My mom was watching Sense and Sensibility; read everything in an ridiculously exaggerated sophisticated voice. For full effect.)
But I will say it was something of a learned trait, like picking locks 😉
So, I do appreciate traditional chivalry a great deal but it’s so susceptible to abuse that I don’t trust a “gentleman” if he’s too nice.
How’s your life going?
I LIVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Lol, I’ve been insanely busy with assignments but they’re super fun! I’ve got to present a website layout today based off an established website I found, I was hoping to have time to add the interactions to it but I’ll have to settle for just the visuals for now but I might just be able to make my own website by the end of the month. I’ve been online this whole time so I never got my student ID lol and last week we were trying to get it on campus but their camera that was connected to their whole system broke and they couldn’t do anything with any other camera and the only other way to get a student ID is to go to the really dangerous campus so I have to wait until next semester AGAIN to get my ID!
But that’s ok coz all the doors are unlocked by class (which my professor HATES, he would really like a lot better security) and like I can pick locks so it’s all the same to me.
I also doodled in class but no one caught me coz that one was online
(In my defense, it was a review of last semester InDesign work…with critiques!)And I gotta do a 60 second no dialogue video for one class and I can’t decide whether I’m gonna do one with a T-rex trying to catch goldfish but he falls in and drowns coz his arms are too small to pull him out of the fishtank or a quick Pinterest-style tutorial on getting out of duct tape and/or zipties. I hope I have everything I need to do the T-rex one so I can avoid the inevitable show-my-face-online which my mom’d be totally ok with for school but would love it if I can avoid it.
And I’m also working on my rap voice, my sister says I’m better at rapping than doing the glassy-pretty style I’m after simply because I struggle with it! But anyway, my sis said I never missed a note in that song In the End (judge my voice I double dog dare you!!!) so I’m recording and cleaning my audio and then figure out how to do music behind it, I’m still really bad with the instrumentals lol. And this is a stupid project to start coz I’m still cleaning Scarborough Fair for Rose’s prizes. But the higher notes get so messy wherever I set my camera mic. OH LOL and I got into a C.S. Lewis writing contest and I did two Silly Songs to motivate my teammates (…don’t ask. But we won 😝👌 )
But how have you been fairing? And don’t you dare say something blasé like “college is easy once you get used to it”!
I may need to clarify something that often gets misunderstood. I very much agree with Noah (@noah-cochran) with the biblical standard is God’s design that works to the optimization of how He created the family to function. I think there is a problem sometimes in how we as opposite genders treat each other with less respect and love than we ought to. Both men and women have certain natural propensities, however, that, by no means, implies that they do not have shared interests that might be relegated traditionally to one gender or another. Some girls are rough and tumble, and may work every bit as hard in manual labor in dirt and grime as any man, but that does not diminish their femininity. Women often worked the fields alongside the men. Remember the story of Ruth? Look at the industry and skill of the attributes of the Proverbs 31 woman.
This is so true, it seems like it’s always an us v them syndrome with genders, either “proving” that girls can do just as many “manly” activities as guys who “proving” “women’s stuff” is more powerful but all this doesn’t quantify someone’s value, it’s just stupid!!
Many might find her skills far exceed that of what might have been once considered a “traditional role”, but she is learned, can assess the value of a field, has sharp merchant skills, has deft and honed craftsmanship in her production and appears to be such a compliment to her husband that the men of the city recognize her value, and hold her husband in high-respect enough to set in prominence at the gate of the city, because of her. She is praised as every bit his equal, and brings him honor and respect because of the kind of reputation she has and her management skill.
That’s true, although I’ve seen it taken advantage of a lot to “give her guy all the credit” instead, but almost any good can be twisted into something toxic. It’s important for both sides to respect the other and that’s basically the end of it I guess, the rest is just how individuals express it.
A female might often have a sense of caution and feeling about a person, that her husband might be considering doing business with, and that sense of what the relationship with that person portends might serve her husband well to heed her cautions. Even Pilate’s wife demonstrated that sense when her husband was debating about what to do with Jesus. God intends both men and women to live with each other in harmony, not as competitors. God does hold each gender accountable for certain roles which He put upon them. God expects the male to be the physical protector in the home and occupy the defense role for those under his care. Jesus clearly refers to this role when He refers to the “strong man” in the following instances:
Of course, we females have a far superior emotional intelligence on average than males. LOL JK!
But it is a propensity for women to be more likely to value reading emotions more than men with “traditional roles”
In any case, Biblically the male role is more provider and the female role caretaker. There’s a LOT we associate with those roles that are just norms and a lot that are just stupid outward-focused expectations.
God leaves us so much freedom to express this care in our own unique God-given way but we’re so prone to overcomplicating it and twisting it into something impossible and unreasonable. I would say an “effeminate male” would be one that doesn’t treat women with care and respect and the rest is just detail, not really as relevant.
A woman can either grant her husband the respected role of authority in the home, or undermine it. She affirms his role as an act of respect. He affirms her as the cherished bride whom he will lay down his life for out of love and appreciation for her. They belong to each other in oneness as God joins them in matrimony, as long as they defer to Christ as the example they strive to honor first and foremost. This family forms the basis for mutual nuturing and the giving of each to the innate needs of the other. To love his wife as his own body, the man must seek her best. The courtship depicted in the Song of Solomon shows the interplay of mutual love within the roles of each gender. Both honor each other in feeling secure in mutual trust enough to confide in one another. I think the worldly views of modernism have disrupted God’s design by pitting genders against one another. Satan is the dissembler and wants homes broken, and therefore society to crumble because it no longer has foundational adhesion. A mother is as essential as a father for a child’s upbringing. There is a balance that is needed. A daughter needs to know what kind of man will treat her with the selfless love she needs to understand what she should seek in a prospective future mate. A young boy needs to learn how to defer and protect a woman, as he witnesses how his father treats his mother, so that he can model that behavior when he looks for a mate. From his mother, he needs to learn how she responds differently from how his father responds to life circumstances so that he can live with his future wife with an understanding that allows for differences in perspective from his own thinking. Personalities differ from person to person, and these personality differences are too often relegated to definitions categorized by gender by mankind’s assumptions rather than God’s.
I absolutely agree with this, it is the husband’s role to be the authority in the house, not to lord it but a healthy family needs the man to step up and set standards and example. I’ve seen so much breakdown from the moms doing all the childrearing and the dads just passively watching and going with the whole “do whatever your mom says” without any investment in whatever his kids are doing.
It’s just so important for BOTH parents to be a part of their kids’ lives and even if both parents communicate well it’s not that great when everything to dad about his kids are coming 2nd hand from mom so none of the kids really get to know their dad and it’s not well balanced communication or authority and respect.
…
*midrant I’m trying to figure why I know Bible verses condemning effeminate males but none on masculine females…did I miss those verses or is it just plain lawful for the woman to take up that role if there’s no guy around to do it?*
But yeah, BOTH parents need to be an active part of the family and that’s one thing that makes homosexual co-living commitments problematic in child rearing. Both genders are really important and complimentary to each other. But there’s just a HUGE difference between personality and gender and that’s so overlooked.
I absolutely loathe the biological males entering women’s sports to take unfair advantage of female competitors. I loathe the gender confusion promulgated by sexual perverts attempting to switch their genders. I loathe these cross-dressing males gaining access to young children to normalize their perversion under the guise of reading storybooks. These practices are detestable in God’s eyes, and I will not back down from that assertion.
I mean, I don’t mind doing sports with guys coz it’s not really an unfair advantage to me, girls tend to be quicker and better with tactics so that balances out the guys tend to be stronger. The big problem I’d worry about a little is guys tend to be more focused on winning while girls tend to be more interested in enjoying the game but that balances out just fine when we both respect each other’s boundaries like my little brother and I singing Disney songs while dualling with wooden swords every so often he’ll get excited and I gotta remind him not to wack so hard and he immediately apologizes and sometimes he’ll nick me and I go feral and he’ll gotta remind me not to wack so hard, but I trust him so much he’s so respectful of me as a person and supportive of me, with both my girly and rough-‘n-tumble interests and that’s the standard for how I expect guys to treat me now.
But I don’t actually know a lot about “women’s sports” so…I actually can’t have a really good opinion of that until I know more about those sports…?
Perversions with trans and sexuality and especially society’s “solutions” to it is just horrific. So many people take advantage of the “claim to be any gender and everybody has to let you” to have guys in girls’ bathrooms who decide to be trans AFTER THE FACT! And special treatment for politics’ sake on those acts…normalization of perversion and children being told the “solution” to be a little different from what they expect their gender to act is to try another gender is just sick!!!
Instead of telling people they can be themselves even if they don’t fit the typical traits associated with their gender society tells they must obvious change gender to conform to expectations!!!!
I think women do need to learn to defend themselves but whatever means are necessary for we live in a brutal and fallen world. I have no patience for effeminate males, and I am wholly disgusted by their behaviors, for I look upon them as cowards, and irresponsible with regard to the roles God has called them too. I believe a male should protect females, for they are essential to our survival as a society and a species, under God’s order. I think a woman should have confidence in her husband’s commitment to safeguarding her person, and that she knows that he will do his utmost to keep her and their children from harm. I think a man is obligated to be obedient to hear from God daily, to seek His direction for the protection of his home, and to operate in accordance with a self-sacrificial love for those he is charged to protect. I believe a male who strikes a woman, is no man at all and should be scorned by male society and punished for his actions. Masculinity is not defined by women or by men themselves, but by the nature and character of what God sets before them in the example of his son. Christ gave His life as a ransom for His bride.
AMEN.
I agree with everything you guys are saying, but I do have a few thoughts I would love to add. One thing that I’ve noticed in some Christian circles is that there’s a focus on masculinity as our society defines it, but not as it’s defined in the Bible. I have had experiences with men who many Christians would define as extremely masculine by worldly standards (say, loves guns and football), but who neglect some of the masculine roles defined in the Bible. By contrast, there could be a man who loves shopping for clothes and cake decorating, but who takes on the masculine roles defined in the Bible. However, I think there are a lot of Christians who would still say that the first man is more masculine just because of his outward appearance and interests. It’s something that I’m still trying to unlearn myself, if I’m going to be completely honest. Some of the Christian men that I looked up to growing up had an extremely narrow, inaccurate, and often toxic idea of what masculinity is, and it really did damage my perception of both marriage and masculinity. It wasn’t until the past couple of years that God started to heal those wounds and show me that the things I saw were not good representations of Biblical masculinity.
LOUDER FOR THE PEOPLE IN THE BACK!!!!!!
🙂
ugghhhh I’m neurodivergent too and I COMPLETELY understand what you’re talking about. It’s always frustrated me when people talked about how girls think, because that rarely applied to me and made me feel uncomfortable because I didn’t match that perception. It’s so incredibly isolating too. I’m not discounting these experiences for other girls, but I think it’s dangerous to solely lean on generalizations instead of getting to know a person for who they really are. I never knew that about Ehud and Rosario, but I can totally see it. I’m currently working on a genderflipped Snow White retelling, and there’s a little bit of a similar dynamic. Except, the girl is a 5’3″ powerhouse and “Snow White” himself is a gentle 6’5″ giant xD But it’s interesting, even with the flipped dynamic you can still very much see the masculine and feminine roles. I think Skia is partially attracted to Basil because he’s the first person who sees her as worthy of protection (they’re both super soldiers being raised in a lab, and her division is a failed experiment of sorts, which is why she never grew past 5’3″). And I’ve noticed that Basil is always physically putting himself in between Skia and the lab staff, I think in an effort to protect her from the harm that was done to him. It makes me very soft :’)
Amen amen and amen! It was SO hard for me to come to terms with both my traditionally feminine and traditionally masculine traits because I felt like accepting one meant rejecting the other and the two pieces of me were severed in two by criticism and expectations even by people who really do love me and wanted what was best for me.
Lol ikr!?! They’ve been so fun!!
Oh sweet!!! I love genderflipped retelling and fairytale retellings I will read that as soon as you write it!!!!!
That is soo true, however much I flip gender traits they always still gravitate to that role and that’s such a huge thing for me because exploring that with my characters really helped me overcome a lot of my gender dysphoria and understand my value as a person and as a woman.
Amen to everything you said there! Guns, sports, strength, physical protection, patriotism, they are all glorified in a quite repugnant way. While physical protection of one’s wife and family is important and ordered by the bible, men seem to think the phrase ‘lay down one’s life’ only refers to taking the bullet, and then proceed to ignore what its much more relevant meaning is: meekness and sacrificing one’s wishes for others, humbleness. I just recently heard a fantastic sermon on what a biblical man is, and it runs along the lines of what you said. So once again, amen!
SAY IT AGAIN FOR IDIOTS WHO CAN’T TAKE A REALITY CHECK!!!!!!!!!!!
To be a light to the world you must shine in the darkness.
maybe what we really debate is exactly how a person is allowed to EXPRESS their masculinity/femininity.
What exactly do you mean by this? (just curious). I would just like to say, once again, though, that the way men or women act or what they like to play, or watch, or write, or read, or what work or hobbies they have, really has little to do with what defines men and women–and by little, I mean practically none. If you are interested or like all things that are typically associated with men, then great, that makes you no less womanly. Now, having said that, I should mention that certain behavior of men may not be appropriate for women, but those things would be very specific and related to the roles of men and women according to the bible.
One other thing in regard to this: “effeminate” does not mean a man who doesn’t like guns and blunt talk, and instead likes the color pink, curling up on the couch, and doing something aristy. Those things are not what define men. Effiminate, according to the bible, is directly referecing homosexuality/sodomy, nothing more, nothing less. You also wondered if the bible referenced the opposite of effiminate–essentially, what people now call lesbians. Yes it does, in two ways: one, it obviously states that two members of the same sex are not to join in marriage (marriage is defined by a male and a female joining together in one body), and two, the Proverbs 31 and Titus 2 woman’s qualities are shown. Thus, if someone is nothing like that, then they are not acting with a proper degree of womanality–and again, that has nothing to do with their hobbies or social behavior.
On this topic I’d like to note 2 big things.
Good points (on the door opening thing particularly). I should have clarified that I do think that men doing gentemanly things like opening doors and giving up seats is to be commended, and does exmplefiy the chivarous trait of protecting and sheltering women.
If I’m in a group of guys and there’s a limited number of seats I’m gonna deck anybody who tries to beat me to the seat coz I’ll be bullied coz I’m the female in a pack of males and I’d need to assert dominance to accepted into the pack.
So, I hope you’re speaking of a school/college enviroment, because if the young men who you hang out with act in such a way that you feel the need to assert dominance or else be bullied, I would strongly suggest you disassociate yourself with those men. Sorry if that comes off blunt, but if the guys consider themselves a ‘pack’ and treat you like a very easily bullied weak girl, then they are the antithesis of good company. Needing to asserting dominance is almost never a good thing unless in very specific, probably dangerous or dire situations.
That one way-older-than-me dude from church who was interested in me when I was thirteen would’ve absolutely used the gentleman role to his advantage in that situation to push me into a seated position which would put me at a huge fighting disadvantage and a psychological sense of subservience.
Again, if the men around you make you feel like that, or put you positions that make you feel as if you need to dominate them, I would be avoiding them completley.
I LIVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wonderful! Such a joyous feeling, being alive. 🙂
So you’re in full fledged college? Campus, dorms, etc? What degree are you going for?
And I’m also working on my rap voice, my sister says I’m better at rapping than doing the glassy-pretty style I’m after simply because I struggle with it!
Nice. I have a love-hate relationship with rap. I have a high level of admiraiton for those who can perform it, but it is also arguabley my most disliked version of music. Having said that, if you came up to me and rapped an introduction, that would be absolutely amazing.
But how have you been fairing? And don’t you dare say something blasé like “college is easy once you get used to it”!
Well, let’s see here. My antipathy for college economics is growing by the second, I recently sold a few lambs, and accidently gave someone a ram instead of a ewe and that needs fixing, youtube keeps toying with me in a most draconian manner, and I just recovered from a rather annoying sickness.
So fantastic. 🙂
But life has been pretty good. I’m looking forward to summer travels, and my projects are coming along fair enough.
TOOK ME A WHILE BUT I’M HERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What exactly do you mean by this? (just curious). I would just like to say, once again, though, that the way men or women act or what they like to play, or watch, or write, or read, or what work or hobbies they have, really has little to do with what defines men and women–and by little, I mean practically none. If you are interested or like all things that are typically associated with men, then great, that makes you no less womanly. Now, having said that, I should mention that certain behavior of men may not be appropriate for women, but those things would be very specific and related to the roles of men and women according to the bible.
I mean how people can perceive it, how femininity or masculinity is “presented”. People are always like “you don’t LOOK like you have X” like ARE YOU IN MY HEADSPACE???? THEN I GUESS YOU’LL JUST HAVE TO TAKE MY WORD FOR IT OR DECIDE NOT TO!!!!
Like women can be caretakers but also be like the big bulky showoff who likes smashing stuff lol. That doesn’t mean she ISN’T a caretaker that just means she “expresses” it differently. And I… actually thought I’d have to fight to keep that point…a lot of conservative groups really hold to the “traditional” social “roles” of femininity and masculinity…
I’m actually really surprised and happy that we actually agree that the way men/women act, like to play, watch, write or read etc has little – practically nothing, to do with what defines them as men and women.
So “express” kinda to me meant “outward appearances that people interpret as X” but I absolutely agree with your stance here, it’s something I’ve been trying to confront anywhere I bump into the “fit your gender role” whatever.
One other thing in regard to this: “effeminate” does not mean a man who doesn’t like guns and blunt talk, and instead likes the color pink, curling up on the couch, and doing something aristy. Those things are not what define men. Effiminate, according to the bible, is directly referecing homosexuality/sodomy, nothing more, nothing less. You also wondered if the bible referenced the opposite of effiminate–essentially, what people now call lesbians. Yes it does, in two ways: one, it obviously states that two members of the same sex are not to join in marriage (marriage is defined by a male and a female joining together in one body), and two, the Proverbs 31 and Titus 2 woman’s qualities are shown. Thus, if someone is nothing like that, then they are not acting with a proper degree of womanality–and again, that has nothing to do with their hobbies or social behavior.
Oh that’s interesting! I read all these verses on homosexuality but I hadn’t actually connected the “effeminate” to “homosexual actions”, that makes sense. I’ll probably have to check up on a couple different translations to get a clearer idea of the meaning of word in all its nuances, just coz I work like that, but it sounds legit!
Good points (on the door opening thing particularly). I should have clarified that I do think that men doing gentemanly things like opening doors and giving up seats is to be commended, and does exmplefiy the chivarous trait of protecting and sheltering women.
🙂👌
So, I hope you’re speaking of a school/college enviroment, because if the young men who you hang out with act in such a way that you feel the need to assert dominance or else be bullied, I would strongly suggest you disassociate yourself with those men. Sorry if that comes off blunt, but if the guys consider themselves a ‘pack’ and treat you like a very easily bullied weak girl, then they are the antithesis of good company. Needing to asserting dominance is almost never a good thing unless in very specific, probably dangerous or dire situations.
No thank you for being blunt, blunt is way better than subtly manipulat…blunt’s good! Thanks <3
I’m probably exaggerating tbh, I’ve just always been super paranoid and hyper alert, my parents had really bad experiences at my age and are really protective and so I’m just constantly in the habit of expecting the worst first. And like we live right next door to a registered sex-offender and I’m easily triggered, like even stuff you’ve said has triggered me and I know you’re cool!
I don’t willingly hang out with anybody who makes me feel insecure like that, it’s good.
I’ve actually be stunned a little by how wholesome everyone is on SE and how safe I feel here. Thanks, it… means a lot to me that you want me to be safe… *hugs*
Again, if the men around you make you feel like that, or put you positions that make you feel as if you need to dominate them, I would be avoiding them completley.
LOL buddy that’s the every day life of a gal, there’s always one anywhere you go! A lot girls’ small-talk is exchanging advice on repelling pervs. Why do you think we never go to public restrooms alone?
…
Do guys ever always get that “never go to the bathrooms alone” rule too?
Wonderful! Such a joyous feeling, being alive. 🙂 So you’re in full fledged college? Campus, dorms, etc? What degree are you going for?
It feels a lot better than being a zombie! 😊 I’d much rather beat zombies with a nailed bat than BE a zombie. 😊
Oh yeah, but most of my classes have been online, I can’t do that anymore tho and that’s really bad coz both my parents have health problems that make driving not that great and nobody’s taught me to drive yet 😑
I’m going for an associates in my graphic design and it’s been awesome so far!! Except I have to take InDesign twice…😒 lol
Nice. I have a love-hate relationship with rap. I have a high level of admiraiton for those who can perform it, but it is also arguabley my most disliked version of music.
I am currently in a “MUST COLLECT THEM ALL” phase for every genre of singing styles. I typically like songs with rap pieces but not the whole song rapping, but I’ve warmed up more to rap singing it! Next I gotta acquire the heavy metal “monster”-voice (you know what I’m talking about 😉) and a buncha interesting inflections different singers have too!
Having said that, if you came up to me and rapped an introduction, that would be absolutely amazing.
This motivated me to try to memorize that rap piece in Enemy by Imagine Dragons whilst waiting for my class to start, which class I missed because my internet decided to stab itself repeatedly to mess with me.
Anyway. This is as fast as I can rap for now: pretend it’s an introduction😉
Well, let’s see here. My antipathy for college economics is growing by the second, I recently sold a few lambs, and accidently gave someone a ram instead of a ewe and that needs fixing, youtube keeps toying with me in a most draconian manner, and I just recovered from a rather annoying sickness.
LOL MOOD!!!!
Agreeeeed with economics tho, I don’t have my academics until a few more semesters tho so I am happy ;P
It’s very bad to give someone a ram not an ewe *pats on back* very stupid mistake.
SERVES YOU RIGHT FOR DELETING ALL YOUR VIDEOS AS SOON AS I HAD THE INTERNET TO WATCH THEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ok but yeah, that stinks. Having so much you COULD do if only *gestures indignantly at life*
Well, don’t get sick again <3 (I hope you’re feeling better now!)
So fantastic. 🙂
The added layers of sass and sarcasm with the smiley emoji. It’s beautiful… 😑👌/✌️😝
Oh where you traveling this summer?
To be a light to the world you must shine in the darkness.
Shoot I keep forgetting to tag people…
@noah-cochran @calidris @obrian-of-the-surface-worldTo be a light to the world you must shine in the darkness.
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