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  • #137415
    Joy C. Woodbury
    @joy-caroline

    @rose-colored-fancy

    Incredibly weird is the only way to describe it XD Several things I have either said or thought while translating myths “He turned her into a what?” “I mean, I guess turning into a tree is one way to handle the situation.” “Wow, that’s gory.” “Did we really need the descriptions of every single dog? Really?” *While reading Icarus* “Splash, I guess.”

    XD Mythology is so weird. Honestly, I can’t get over how weird it is. 😂😂

     And cows only sleep twenty minutes a day, and calves are way stronger than you think they are and they try to knock the bucket out of your hands and they try to suck your fingers if they’re little enough which is both adorable and disgusting XD

    Calves are cute, but yeah, they can get vicious!

    Oh, you have a blog? That’s awesome! What’s the URL? I’d love to read it if that’s okay!

    Of course! You can find it here: Discipleship With Joy

    Wow, Javert sounds amazing! That’s so complex and interesting!

    I know! I’ve never met any villain in literature quite like him. His inner turmoil when his lie is revealed to him in plain sight is simply chilling. Valjean gives him undeniable evidence that redemption is a real thing when he saves Javert’s life at the barricades. He has the perfect opportunity to execute Javert and put an end to the man who has persecuted him for years, but instead he sets Javert free. The inspector literally turns around and shouts, “You irritate me. Kill me instead.” But Valjean insists on sparing him, and Javert finds himself grappling with his duty to the law and his hesitation to turn in the man who saved his life. Since he can’t face the fact he was believing a lie all along, he throws himself into the Seine. It’s such a chilling scene.

    I think… Conner from the False Prince series. He was a spectacular villain because he was so complicated. He nearly had me convinced that he was right a couple times.

    I think most villains like Conner are hungry for power, not interested in what’s good for the people. That’s usually how it is with antagonists who seem like they want to help everyone out, but turns out that’s just a façade in order to gain everything for themselves.

    Oh, another one is Prince Viridian from Letter For the King and Secrets of the Wild Wood. (Not the Netflix series, the books! They messed those books up again!) He was awesome because he… kinda seemed right. That was a spectacular use of foils. Man, I love those books!

    I’ll have to check those out! I haven’t seen the Netflix series either, but I can imagine what you’re talking about. I get so mad when TV series or movies ruin amazing books. XD

    Oh! I just thought of another villain I find super interesting – Archdeacon Dom Claude Frollo from Victor Hugo’s The Hunchback of Notre Dame. (Not Claude Frollo from the Disney animation, though, lol. His character in the animation is completely different from his character in the book.)

    Claude Frollo is such a compelling villain because he actually starts off as being extremely kind, selfless, and compassionate. His parents die from the plague when he is a young man, leaving a baby brother, Jehan. Claude adopts Jehan, loves him deeply, and tries to raise him to become a godly and studious man. A few years later, he comes across a deformed child who has been abandoned (this is the hunchback). The others in the crowd call the child horrible names and say that he deserves to die. But Claude has compassion on the child and adopts him because he doesn’t want him to be abandoned. He calls him Quasimodo and raises him as his own.

    But both Jehan and Quasimodo end up being disappointments. Jehan grows up to be reckless and cavalier and only comes to see Claude when he wants money. Quasimodo goes deaf and is unable to learn. His bitter disappointment in his two adopted children causes Claude to become obsessed with certain studies and eventually turn to witchcraft as a result. He becomes a sorcerer and a horrible person. He becomes obsessed with a gypsy girl, Esmeralda, and will stop at nothing to get her for himself, turning to murder and causing her execution at the end of the book.

    What’s interesting is that Quasimodo actually really loves his adoptive father throughout the novel because Claude is the only one to show kindness to him. But he’s the one who throws Claude off the tower of Notre Dame at the end.

    It’s just really interesting to see how a person can start off so sensitive and even loving, and then descend into utter madness and just horrific and cruel acts.

    https://discipleshipwithjoy.com

    #137416
    Joy C. Woodbury
    @joy-caroline

    @noah-cochran

    Jump in anytime! 🙂

    https://discipleshipwithjoy.com

    #139419
    Rose
    @rose-colored-fancy

    @joy-caroline

    Of course! You can find it here: Discipleship With Joy

    I checked it out, I love it! I’ll totally be following you! I love your website design, it’s really cool! I took the quiz, and apparently, I’m Paul! Also, I started making a quiz for my characters via that website, which is really fun XD

    I know! I’ve never met any villain in literature quite like him. His inner turmoil when his lie is revealed to him in plain sight is simply chilling.

    Wowww, that sounds so cool!

    I think most villains like Conner are hungry for power, not interested in what’s good for the people. That’s usually how it is with antagonists who seem like they want to help everyone out, but turns out that’s just a façade in order to gain everything for themselves.

    The cool thing is that we’ll never know! There was a short story from his POV and I still don’t know! It made him a lot more interesting, though I do think you might be right 🙂

    I’ll have to check those out! I haven’t seen the Netflix series either, but I can imagine what you’re talking about. I get so mad when TV series or movies ruin amazing books. XD

    Ugh, YES! I haven’t seen the series, but I saw a few clips and read about it. They completely messed it up in a hundred ways and lost the entire essence of the story. They tried to make it more modern and grittier, which kinda defeated the purpose?

    It was written in the 60’s so it’s kinda ‘old-fashioned’ (which I like, despite the fact that I’d appreciate more female characters.) and they tried to pull in politics and social issues, which totally didn’t work.

    And a large aspect was that the MC, Tiuri, had a lot to lose. He and his family were one of the greatest chivalric families and he kind of labors under the weight and knows that he’s going to lose all of it doing what’s right and struggles with loneliness and discouragement underway. And they threw all of that out of the window, added Strong Female Characters (TM) Power of Friendship (TM) and Underdog Power (TM). And… good grief, I’m all for female characters, but it’s grossly historically inaccurate and unrealistic to have female knights! It just doesn’t work! It defeated the entire purpose and UGHH!

    And a large part of the book was about “The world is inherently good and we need to protect it” so making it darker and grittier and turning all the good characters into traitors and morally gray characters defeats the entire point!!

    I mean, the book was even specifically world-built to be light and beautiful! It’s one of those books that I’d 100% live in. It’s so beautiful and amazing and you’re just rooting for it to be saved and I just want to go there! And the few clips from the series I’ve seen everything is gray and dark and dead. 

    Just… ughughugh. It makes me so mad because the books were glorious! I really recommend them, they were some of the first fantasy books I read and they’re still special 🙂 They were originally in Dutch (The Dutch version is slightly better, especially the second book) but the translation is really good too!

    It’s just really interesting to see how a person can start off so sensitive and even loving, and then descend into utter madness and just horrific and cruel acts.

    Wow, that sounds so interesting! That sounds really cool! It’s such an interesting character arc!

    Without darkness, there is no light. If there was no nighttime, would the stars be as bright?

    #140490
    Joy C. Woodbury
    @joy-caroline

    @rose-colored-fancy

    I checked it out, I love it! I’ll totally be following you! I love your website design, it’s really cool! I took the quiz, and apparently, I’m Paul! Also, I started making a quiz for my characters via that website, which is really fun XD

    Thanks for the follow! And thanks for taking the quiz! I was Paul too the first time I took it, but I took it again the other day just for fun, and that time I got Temira, lol. So I guess a bit of both? XD

    That website is a ton of fun to make quizzes for your WIP!!

    And a large aspect was that the MC, Tiuri, had a lot to lose. He and his family were one of the greatest chivalric families and he kind of labors under the weight and knows that he’s going to lose all of it doing what’s right and struggles with loneliness and discouragement underway. And they threw all of that out of the window, added Strong Female Characters (TM) Power of Friendship (TM) and Underdog Power (TM). And… good grief, I’m all for female characters, but it’s grossly historically inaccurate and unrealistic to have female knights! It just doesn’t work! It defeated the entire purpose and UGHH!

    And a large part of the book was about “The world is inherently good and we need to protect it” so making it darker and grittier and turning all the good characters into traitors and morally gray characters defeats the entire point!!

    Oh, goodness. It sounds like there are a LOT of things the series messed up!

    I’m with you – I love female characters in unique roles, but a storyteller’s got to make it work. There has to be a plausible reason the Strong Female Character is in her role and why she’s strong – and it can’t be just because she’s a knight. (Sorry if that made absolutely no sense. XD)

    For the life of me I can’t figure out how a theme of inherent goodness can work with a bunch of good-for-nothing characters. Ughs.

    I mean, the book was even specifically world-built to be light and beautiful! It’s one of those books that I’d 100% live in. It’s so beautiful and amazing and you’re just rooting for it to be saved and I just want to go there! And the few clips from the series I’ve seen everything is gray and dark and dead.

    Just… ughughugh. It makes me so mad because the books were glorious! I really recommend them, they were some of the first fantasy books I read and they’re still special 🙂 They were originally in Dutch (The Dutch version is slightly better, especially the second book) but the translation is really good too!

    That really sucks that they made such a wreck of a book series you love. I know that feeling all too well!

    I’ll look into the books and add them to my never-ending TBR. 😉 Thanks for the recommendation!

    Wow, that sounds so interesting! That sounds really cool! It’s such an interesting character arc!

    It is, it is. I’m very much drawn to the villains who have a good and hopeful start, but end up descending into insanity. Insanity, to me, is like a living death sentence and it’s so sad! It’s pretty tragic to see the gradual downfall. I think Claude Frollo is a really tragic character. Yes, he was horribly evil and did terrible things – that can’t be denied – but what makes is sad is that I always think, when reading the part of his love for his younger brother and his compassion and kindness toward Quasimodo, “Wow, he really did have potential to be a good person.” It’s such an interesting arc, like you said!

    https://discipleshipwithjoy.com

    #142161
    Rose
    @rose-colored-fancy

    @joy-caroline

    Thanks for the follow! And thanks for taking the quiz! I was Paul too the first time I took it, but I took it again the other day just for fun, and that time I got Temira, lol. So I guess a bit of both? XD

    That website is a ton of fun to make quizzes for your WIP!!

    I had the same thing, I made a quiz for my characters and got different answers each time! Well, a bit of both is good! 🙂

    Yes, it’s really fun!!

    Oh, goodness. It sounds like there are a LOT of things the series messed up!

    I’m with you – I love female characters in unique roles, but a storyteller’s got to make it work. There has to be a plausible reason the Strong Female Character is in her role and why she’s strong – and it can’t be just because she’s a knight. (Sorry if that made absolutely no sense. XD)

    For the life of me I can’t figure out how a theme of inherent goodness can work with a bunch of good-for-nothing characters. Ughs.

    Exactly! I totally get what you mean! Actually, I much preferred the female characters in the book, (especially the second one) because they were actually doing stuff that male characters couldn’t and adding depth to the story! I must admit, the female characters were the tiniest bit shallow in the first book, they just didn’t get enough screentime. Still, I prefer it!

    And yes! Consistency is key! If half the army is women (Have actually read that) then you need a plausible explanation as to why they deviated from the cultural norm. (Which was established to be all-male armies.) Soo… you do need to think about why that works.

    I have nothing against sword-swinging warrior ladies in fantasy. (Actually, it’s one of my all-time favorite tropes, as long as it doesn’t stray too far into Not Like Other Girls territory) But I also really enjoy the female characters who don’t like the spotlight, or who don’t know how to handle weapons and have no desire to. They’re just as cool!

    I actually recently added a character to my first book and I really, really like her. Her name is Nebiah, she’s Gavril’s love interest, and Liorah’s opposite in most ways. She’s gentle, girly, quite reserved, not particularly strong-willed or intimidating, and has never held a sword in her life.

    Now, that’s the perfect setup to use Liorah and Nebiah as foils for each other and make some conflict there, but I decided not to. There’s already plenty of conflict, and they can be foils while they’re friends. Honestly, I’m so happy I made that choice. It makes me so happy to see Liorah and Nebiah (who is basically the representation of “Other girls”) getting along and supporting each other and being awesome together.

    That really sucks that they made such a wreck of a book series you love. I know that feeling all too well!

    I’ll look into the books and add them to my never-ending TBR.   Thanks for the recommendation!

    Exactly! It’s such a pain!

    Please do! They’re basically legendary in the Netherlands but vastly underrated outside of it! I’m sure you’ll like them! 🙂

    It is, it is. I’m very much drawn to the villains who have a good and hopeful start, but end up descending into insanity. Insanity, to me, is like a living death sentence and it’s so sad! It’s pretty tragic to see the gradual downfall. I think Claude Frollo is a really tragic character. Yes, he was horribly evil and did terrible things – that can’t be denied – but what makes is sad is that I always think, when reading the part of his love for his younger brother and his compassion and kindness toward Quasimodo, “Wow, he really did have potential to be a good person.” It’s such an interesting arc, like you said!

    Exactly! Villains with the potential to be good are the most interesting! Actually, most of my villains fall into that category XD I was writing a piece about the main villain just a few days ago and it was so weird because the POV character couldn’t quite decide whether she liked him or not. He was kinda intimidating, but not outright pure evil, because the POV character wasn’t a direct enemy of his. I thought it was kinda interesting!

     

    Without darkness, there is no light. If there was no nighttime, would the stars be as bright?

    #142230
    Joy C. Woodbury
    @joy-caroline

    @rose-colored-fancy

    And yes! Consistency is key! If half the army is women (Have actually read that) then you need a plausible explanation as to why they deviated from the cultural norm. (Which was established to be all-male armies.)

    Exactly. Took the words right outta my mouth. Your “strong” female characters won’t make any strong impact if you just shove them in there to make them “role models” or something. Lol, that’s just very annoying in stories!

    I have nothing against sword-swinging warrior ladies in fantasy. (Actually, it’s one of my all-time favorite tropes, as long as it doesn’t stray too far into Not Like Other Girls territory)

    Same. I feel like I could give a whole speech on why Not Like Other Girls is the worst trope everrr. Claiming the title of Not Like Other Girls is basically just proving that you’re actually Every Other Girl Who Ever Lived.

    I actually recently added a character to my first book and I really, really like her. Her name is Nebiah, she’s Gavril’s love interest, and Liorah’s opposite in most ways. She’s gentle, girly, quite reserved, not particularly strong-willed or intimidating, and has never held a sword in her life.

    Now, that’s the perfect setup to use Liorah and Nebiah as foils for each other and make some conflict there, but I decided not to. There’s already plenty of conflict, and they can be foils while they’re friends. Honestly, I’m so happy I made that choice. It makes me so happy to see Liorah and Nebiah (who is basically the representation of “Other girls”) getting along and supporting each other and being awesome together.

    Nebiah sounds awesome! I especially love the unique friendship you’re unfolding between her and Liorah. I’m a big believer in the fact that there need to be a billion more close girl friendships in stories. Like you said, women should be supporting one another and not tearing one another down. Just because you’re different doesn’t mean you can’t be friends – and in fact, friends who are different from you in many ways often make the most valuable friendships. It teaches understanding, empathy, and the value of each life God creates. ‘Cause after all, we’re all made in His image and we’re all created as He meant us to be.

    Please do! They’re basically legendary in the Netherlands but vastly underrated outside of it! I’m sure you’ll like them!

    Awesome! *officially adds to TBR*

    Exactly! Villains with the potential to be good are the most interesting! Actually, most of my villains fall into that category XD I was writing a piece about the main villain just a few days ago and it was so weird because the POV character couldn’t quite decide whether she liked him or not. He was kinda intimidating, but not outright pure evil, because the POV character wasn’t a direct enemy of his. I thought it was kinda interesting!

    I could not agree more! I think it’s so interesting because I believe God creates all people inherently good – we are His creations and He doesn’t create anything inherently evil. That’s why it takes a lot to tear away one’s ability to have a conscience. That’s not to say there aren’t people who are pure evil and possessed by evil – there are, which is why I believe writers need to portray those too. There are people who have no conscience and do wrong things for no reason. But God still creates everyone in the human race in His image and therefore inherently good. People who are possessed of the devil allowed the devil in themselves.

    Sorry if I rambled a bit there. XD On another note, I think it would be really interesting to write a scene with your villain and a character he/she is not directly involved with! It would help you to get another side of the villain’s character – like, is he evil to everyone or does he have a valid-to-him reason he is evil to the protagonist?

    I love talking about antagonists. XD They’re often my favorite characters in stories because they’re so complex.

    https://discipleshipwithjoy.com

    #142347
    Rose
    @rose-colored-fancy

    @joy-caroline

    Exactly. Took the words right outta my mouth. Your “strong” female characters won’t make any strong impact if you just shove them in there to make them “role models” or something. Lol, that’s just very annoying in stories!

    Exactly! It’s kinda poor worldbuilding too. If you change something from the real world you have to think through the consequences and decide how the change came about in the first place, and then make it feasible.

    Besides, I often see books that don’t include women in domestic roles at all, which is such a pity since it gives off the message that you can’t have any impact on the world unless you’re in a traditionally masculine role, which is nonsense, obviously. It just kinda irks me when all female characters are alike, but I could go on about that for a really long time XD

    Same. I feel like I could give a whole speech on why Not Like Other Girls is the worst trope everrr. Claiming the title of Not Like Other Girls is basically just proving that you’re actually Every Other Girl Who Ever Lived.

    Exactly!! And I mean… other girls are awesome!! XD The entire message behind Not Like Other Girls is that girls have to be a certain way otherwise they’re villains (Example, the girly, feminine, Mean Girl)

    Nebiah sounds awesome! I especially love the unique friendship you’re unfolding between her and Liorah. I’m a big believer in the fact that there need to be a billion more close girl friendships in stories. Like you said, women should be supporting one another and not tearing one another down. Just because you’re different doesn’t mean you can’t be friends – and in fact, friends who are different from you in many ways often make the most valuable friendships. It teaches understanding, empathy, and the value of each life God creates. ‘Cause after all, we’re all made in His image and we’re all created as He meant us to be.

    Exactly! Nebiah started out as very much a background character, but she got more and more scenes and now she’s still a side character, but an important one. I think one of my favorite parts about their relationship is that Liorah admires her sewing and embroidery and even learned how from her, and Nebiah has no interest in martial arts but takes an interest in it for Liorah and Gavril’s sake. It’s actually really sweet how they try to find common ground even though there isn’t much. XD

    And yes for girl friendships! They’re just the best, IRL and in books. One of my other least favorite tropes is “Two girls being petty and dramatic to each other for no reason. (Even worse if it’s because they’re jealous of each other because of a guy XD)”

    I’ve only read this once and it was very annoying. (I thought it was especially hilarious how the fandom of those books completely disregarded that part of the plot and came to the unanimous decision that they were actually friends already (which did happen later)) XD

    And like you said, I love when it’s a friendship between two really different characters but they still admire the other’s skills and interests. That’s just the best!

    I could not agree more! I think it’s so interesting because I believe God creates all people inherently good – we are His creations and He doesn’t create anything inherently evil. That’s why it takes a lot to tear away one’s ability to have a conscience. That’s not to say there aren’t people who are pure evil and possessed by evil – there are, which is why I believe writers need to portray those too. There are people who have no conscience and do wrong things for no reason. But God still creates everyone in the human race in His image and therefore inherently good. People who are possessed of the devil allowed the devil in themselves.

    Exactly!! That’s also the exact reason we don’t believe people are inherently sinful (original sin etc.) We live in a sinful world and are therefore tempted to sin, (which we all do) which is why we need Jesus.

    You mentioned you’re a Seventh-day Adventist? (I think? XD) I actually don’t know that much about it, but I’d love to hear more if you don’t mind 🙂

    Sorry if I rambled a bit there. XD On another note, I think it would be really interesting to write a scene with your villain and a character he/she is not directly involved with! It would help you to get another side of the villain’s character – like, is he evil to everyone or does he have a valid-to-him reason he is evil to the protagonist?

    Exactly! In my WIP you start off expecting him to be a pure-evil villian, then a side character meets him for the first time, and he seems pretty alright? and then there’s a reveal and it looks as though the villain is actually right and the heroes are evil and then something else happens and you’re like: Nope, definitely evil. Very evil. And it goes back and forth like that XD

    If you know very little about him, he seems evil, if you know a bit more, he actually seems alright, then once you know the full story he’s actually more evil than you thought XD

    I love talking about antagonists. XD They’re often my favorite characters in stories because they’re so complex.

    They are! I used to really struggle with antagonists, but now I really enjoy them!

    Without darkness, there is no light. If there was no nighttime, would the stars be as bright?

    #142367
    Joy C. Woodbury
    @joy-caroline

    @rose-colored-fancy

    Besides, I often see books that don’t include women in domestic roles at all, which is such a pity since it gives off the message that you can’t have any impact on the world unless you’re in a traditionally masculine role, which is nonsense, obviously.

    I actually haven’t noticed before, but now that you point it out, you’re totally right! In a lot of modern literature, female characters only play masculine roles, which I think is very unhealthy because it sends a message that traditionally feminine roles cannot be beautiful too. People are valuable in any role God calls them to.

    The entire message behind Not Like Other Girls is that girls have to be a certain way otherwise they’re villains (Example, the girly, feminine, Mean Girl)

    Yup. I absolutely abhor when stories continually paint a girl as evil if she likes high heels and nail polish, and as good if she wears sneakers and baseball caps. Like, what’s wrong with either one?! The Not Like Other Girls character is ALWAYS a tomboy who reads books, and it’s so annoying. That doesn’t make you any different from anyone else and it doesn’t make you a hero. Same goes for if you’re a girly girl who likes getting her nails done. That trope is simply ridiculous wherever you find it. *sighs*

    I think one of my favorite parts about their relationship is that Liorah admires her sewing and embroidery and even learned how from her, and Nebiah has no interest in martial arts but takes an interest in it for Liorah and Gavril’s sake. It’s actually really sweet how they try to find common ground even though there isn’t much. XD

    That’s awesome! I love friendships where each person comprises to do an activity the other enjoys, even if they don’t.

    And yes for girl friendships! They’re just the best, IRL and in books. One of my other least favorite tropes is “Two girls being petty and dramatic to each other for no reason. (Even worse if it’s because they’re jealous of each other because of a guy XD)

    Aw man, I highly dislike that trope as well. It’s disastrous. XD

    Exactly!! That’s also the exact reason we don’t believe people are inherently sinful (original sin etc.) We live in a sinful world and are therefore tempted to sin, (which we all do) which is why we need Jesus.

    Yes! I think it’s actually dishonoring to God when we suggest that His own creations are incapable of good.

    You mentioned you’re a Seventh-day Adventist? (I think? XD) I actually don’t know that much about it, but I’d love to hear more if you don’t mind 🙂

    Yup, I’m an SDA! And I love talking about my faith, so feel free to ask absolutely anything you want to know. 😊 The two most basic facts about Seventh-Day Adventism can be found right in our name: 1) That we believe Saturday, the seventh day of the week, is God’s sanctified Sabbath, so we observe it rather than Sunday; and 2) that we put much emphasis on waiting for the second Advent of Christ and being prepared for heaven.

    They are! I used to really struggle with antagonists, but now I really enjoy them!

    My favorite kind of antagonists are probably the ones who are still actually kind of good. They get bonus points if they do something kind during the novel.

    https://discipleshipwithjoy.com

    #142504
    Rose
    @rose-colored-fancy

    @joy-caroline

    I actually haven’t noticed before, but now that you point it out, you’re totally right! In a lot of modern literature, female characters only play masculine roles, which I think is very unhealthy because it sends a message that traditionally feminine roles cannot be beautiful too. People are valuable in any role God calls them to.

    Exactly! I love to see a bunch of different callings in characters. It just makes me so happy 🙂

    Yup. I absolutely abhor when stories continually paint a girl as evil if she likes high heels and nail polish, and as good if she wears sneakers and baseball caps. Like, what’s wrong with either one?! The Not Like Other Girls character is ALWAYS a tomboy who reads books, and it’s so annoying. That doesn’t make you any different from anyone else and it doesn’t make you a hero. Same goes for if you’re a girly girl who likes getting her nails done. That trope is simply ridiculous wherever you find it. *sighs*

    You get me! That’s exactly what I think of it.

    Yup, I’m an SDA! And I love talking about my faith, so feel free to ask absolutely anything you want to know.   The two most basic facts about Seventh-Day Adventism can be found right in our name: 1) That we believe Saturday, the seventh day of the week, is God’s sanctified Sabbath, so we observe it rather than Sunday; and 2) that we put much emphasis on waiting for the second Advent of Christ and being prepared for heaven.

    That’s awesome! We have Shabbat on Saturday too! *High fives*

    I’m a Messianic Jew, which is… a complicated thing to explain XD (Don’t worry if you’ve never heard about it, it’s really obscure XD)

    I usually explain it as we’re in between Judaism and Christianity. Some people consider us a sub-group of Jews, some consider us a Christian denomination, others think we’re a completely separate religion.

    We believe that Jesus Christ was the Son of God and came to earth to save us from our sins and that we find salvation in believing in Him. Besides that, we believe that God doesn’t change His mind and that the commandments given in the Torah are still valid and that we should observe them. (Note, we don’t believe this brings us salvation, that comes only from Jesus.)

    Beyond that, it’s hard to say that all Messianics believe so or so because I’ve never met two Messianics that agree on all points of theology XD But I’d be happy to explain more about what I believe!

    My favorite kind of antagonists are probably the ones who are still actually kind of good. They get bonus points if they do something kind during the novel.

    YES! And villains who try to convince the hero that they’re right, flawless!!

    Without darkness, there is no light. If there was no nighttime, would the stars be as bright?

    #142561
    Joy C. Woodbury
    @joy-caroline

    @rose-colored-fancy

    That’s awesome! We have Shabbat on Saturday too! *High fives*

    High fives back!! #shabbatcrew

    I’m a Messianic Jew, which is… a complicated thing to explain XD (Don’t worry if you’ve never heard about it, it’s really obscure XD)

    Cool! I actually have heard of Messianic Jews. Correct me if I’m mistaken, but aren’t you guys kind of similar to the New Testament Jewish Christians? The ones that didn’t abandon the Law of Moses when they believed in Jesus as their Lord and Savior. I think Paul and Peter are prime examples of Jewish Christians, as they still observed Mosaic Law (for example, Paul took the Nazarite vow at various intervals).

    Besides that, we believe that God doesn’t change His mind and that the commandments given in the Torah are still valid and that we should observe them. (Note, we don’t believe this brings us salvation, that comes only from Jesus.)

    Love that! I think Seventh-Day Adventists and Messianic Jews would probably agree on a lot regarding that. Especially about the Sabbath.

    The Sabbath is the most major point that distinguishes Seventh-Day Adventists from other Christian denominations, as most other Christians observe Sunday instead. One of our most influential founders of the SDA Church, Ellen G. White, received multiple visions regarding Saturday observance. We believe that as a decree God gave at the foundation of the world, and as one of His sacred Ten Commandments, the Sabbath is a serious matter to Him. It definitely isn’t a condition for salvation, it’s just a way to honor God in all areas of our lives, as what He sanctifies should never be taken lightly.

    Beyond that, it’s hard to say that all Messianics believe so or so because I’ve never met two Messianics that agree on all points of theology XD But I’d be happy to explain more about what I believe!

    Ooh, that would be fun! I’d love to hear more and share more about Adventism with you as well. I love talking about faith.

    https://discipleshipwithjoy.com

    #142573
    Rose
    @rose-colored-fancy

    @joy-caroline
    Cool! I actually have heard of Messianic Jews. Correct me if I’m mistaken, but aren’t you guys kind of similar to the New Testament Jewish Christians? The ones that didn’t abandon the Law of Moses when they believed in Jesus as their Lord and Savior. I think Paul and Peter are prime examples of Jewish Christians, as they still observed Mosaic Law (for example, Paul took the Nazarite vow at various intervals).

    Oh you have?! This hasn’t happened often XD

    Wow, that’s exactly right! The only key difference is that we can’t keep any of the temple commandments, but otherwise it’s really close!

    I was actually really impressed with how The Chosen represented this. (I don’t know if you’ve watched it? It’s awesome, we’re almost done with the second season) It’s the little details like all the Jewish characters wearing tzit-tzit. 🙂 (Those tassels on the bottom of their clothes) And how they actually had an episode where they celebrated Sukkot! That was awesome since it was explained really well!

    Love that! I think Seventh-Day Adventists and Messianic Jews would probably agree on a lot regarding that. Especially about the Sabbath.

    We believe that as a decree God gave at the foundation of the world, and as one of His sacred Ten Commandments, the Sabbath is a serious matter to Him. It definitely isn’t a condition for salvation, it’s just a way to honor God in all areas of our lives, as what He sanctifies should never be taken lightly.

    Exactly, that’s why we believe it too! That’s why we keep all the other commandments too because it’s a way of honoring God.

    Besides the Shabbat, some of the other observances we keep that most Christians don’t are the other feasts, (we actually just got out of the High Day season with Feast of Trumpets, Day of Atonement, and Feast of Tabernacles.) and the dietary laws. We don’t follow the mention of separating dairy and meat, because we believe that was based on a misinterpretation, but otherwise, we follow it.

    Ooh, that would be fun! I’d love to hear more and share more about Adventism with you as well. I love talking about faith.

    That would be awesome! 🙂

    Without darkness, there is no light. If there was no nighttime, would the stars be as bright?

    #142574
    Brian Stansell
    @obrian-of-the-surface-world

    @rose-colored-fancy


    @joy-caroline

    I love that both of you are discussing this.  Mind if I silently take notes?
    Dr. Ben Carson is a Seventh-Day Adventist. I love the man. Such wisdom and a love for our Lord.
    My book has a character in it who is a Messianic Jew.
    We have had a Messianic Jew come to speak at our church.
    There is so much in Jewish history and in the OT traditions that are vital to a full and deeper understanding of the NT.  I love the history of the nation of Israel, but one does not fully appreciate the gospel without knowing the imagery and symbolism God instituted with the Jewish feasts and traditions.  I love hearing how these traditions are observed and how they are understood, especially from those who recognize and accept Yeshua as Messiah.  One of my favorite ministers to listen to is Rabbi Jonathan Cahn, who does expound upon these concepts.
    God has a special heart for the Jewish people that endures even through the tragedies and judgments He has had to bring them through to purify them (Jer. 5:19) and get them to turn back to Him. (Jer. 51:5)
    The story of Israel is a model of our own personal story of how God pursues us and loves us and reconciles us to Himself.  I still have much to learn as a Gentile, grafted into the Vine, from the Jewish people and the customs they still observe.
    I am so thankful for being able to learn from you guys.
    May the Lord bless you both today!

    Brian Stansell (aka O'Brian of the Surface World)
    I was born in war.
    Fighting from my first breath.

    #142578
    Rose
    @rose-colored-fancy

    @obrian-of-the-surface-world

    Hi Brian, I’m very happy to see you again 🙂 Feel free to read along, glad to have you!

    It’s awesome that you have a Messianic character in your book! I have never in my entire life encountered one, and precious few Jewish characters, and it’s amazing to see it represented 🙂

    Also, I notice that you refer to Jesus as Yeshua. That’s how we do it too 🙂


    @joy-caroline

    And I remembered some stuff I forgot to clarify so I’m going to add it here XD

    Messianics are more a spectrum than a central group. On one end you have the Messianics that follow the Oral Torah and still do most of the traditions, on the other end you have the Messianics that are essentially Christian, might still go to church on Sunday for the fellowship besides keeping Shabbat and follow none to few of the traditions and only follow the laws of the Bible.

    My family would be far more on the Christian side. We do not follow the Oral Torah, though we have studied it some for context, like you said, Brian. For example, we don’t keep Chanuka or Purim, because they’re not Biblical feasts. (We do have Messianic friends that do, as I said, it differs a lot between people.)

    The only laws and traditions we follow are those that come directly from the Bible, not from an external source.

    Another common myth is that all Messianic Jews were Jews first, then came to recognize Jesus as the Messiah. This definitely happens, but there are also many Christians who come to recognize that the Mosaic laws are still valid. My family doesn’t have any Jewish heritage. My parents were raised Protestant but later recognized the Mosaic laws.

    Messianics don’t have a centralized church/synagogue. There are many, but they all differ a lot, and many are more like study groups, though there is often a leader that prepares a teaching. I’d say this, and the ‘only following the Bible’ are some of the key reasons why Messianics differ so much. Everyone interprets the commandments differently, so there are many differences of opinion.

    You see this appear in subjects such as the dietary laws. (And many of the ‘smaller’ commandments that don’t have much clarification and are open for interpretation.)

    For an example of how a commandment can be interpreted differently, we have friends who believe mushrooms aren’t kosher because they don’t have leaves. (Based on Genisis 9:3) We believe this to be incorrect because of Genisis 1:29 which states that you can eat everything that has seed.

    That’s just one of the examples of how you get little differences of opinion. Anyway, hope this was interesting 🙂

    Without darkness, there is no light. If there was no nighttime, would the stars be as bright?

    #142601
    Joy C. Woodbury
    @joy-caroline

    @obrian-of-the-surface-world

    I love that both of you are discussing this.  Mind if I silently take notes?

    Not at all! Welcome to the discussion. : )

    Dr. Ben Carson is a Seventh-Day Adventist. I love the man. Such wisdom and a love for our Lord.

    By the way, seeing that you’re probably someone who enjoys reading theology, I’d recommend any of Ellen G. White’s books. She was the most influential founder of the Adventist church and the most translated female author in history – not to mention that she was an anointed prophetess of God. The Desire of Ages is a good work of hers to start on. : )

    https://discipleshipwithjoy.com

    #142602
    Joy C. Woodbury
    @joy-caroline

    @rose-colored-fancy

    Besides the Shabbat, some of the other observances we keep that most Christians don’t are the other feasts, (we actually just got out of the High Day season with Feast of Trumpets, Day of Atonement, and Feast of Tabernacles.) and the dietary laws. We don’t follow the mention of separating dairy and meat, because we believe that was based on a misinterpretation, but otherwise, we follow it.

    Oh, that’s interesting! Most Adventists actually do not eat meat or dairy because Ellen G. White (our founder and prophetess) warned against it. I rank among the Adventists who take a more relaxed view – I do eat meat, but not very often, and keep the dairy in moderation. I believe Sister White was speaking of her specific times, as back in the 1800s many foods were not safe to eat at all.

    On one end you have the Messianics that follow the Oral Torah and still do most of the traditions, on the other end you have the Messianics that are essentially Christian, might still go to church on Sunday for the fellowship besides keeping Shabbat and follow none to few of the traditions and only follow the laws of the Bible.

    My family would be far more on the Christian side. We do not follow the Oral Torah, though we have studied it some for context, like you said, Brian. For example, we don’t keep Chanuka or Purim, because they’re not Biblical feasts. (We do have Messianic friends that do, as I said, it differs a lot between people.)

    I’m a bit curious about Purim. Doesn’t it have something to do with Queen Esther? XD I don’t know much about the Jewish holidays.

    Another common myth is that all Messianic Jews were Jews first, then came to recognize Jesus as the Messiah. This definitely happens, but there are also many Christians who come to recognize that the Mosaic laws are still valid. My family doesn’t have any Jewish heritage. My parents were raised Protestant but later recognized the Mosaic laws.

    Ah, I see! Sort of like how many Adventists are raised Mormon, Catholic, etc., but later encounter Adventism and recognize the sacred law of the Bible Sabbath.

    Messianics don’t have a centralized church/synagogue. There are many, but they all differ a lot, and many are more like study groups, though there is often a leader that prepares a teaching. I’d say this, and the ‘only following the Bible’ are some of the key reasons why Messianics differ so much. Everyone interprets the commandments differently, so there are many differences of opinion.

    This makes sense.

    For an example of how a commandment can be interpreted differently, we have friends who believe mushrooms aren’t kosher because they don’t have leaves. (Based on Genisis 9:3) We believe this to be incorrect because of Genisis 1:29 which states that you can eat everything that has seed.

    I actually don’t remember reading these specific dietary laws. The ones I remember best are the ones from Leviticus. This is really interesting! I think most Adventists just believe all vegetables are created equal. (Mushrooms are vegetables, right? XD)

    Hmm, I’ll share with you a few of the most crucial points of Adventism, besides the Sabbath and emphasis on being prepared for the Second Advent.

    The next most crucial point is that Adventists do not believe in the doctrine of eternal hell. We believe that the wicked are destroyed in a single instant from the face of the earth, as God is a God of love and He would not make them suffer for eternity. Of course He is a just God too, but justice is made perfect when the wicked die and remain totally dead. It wouldn’t be justice if they went on living in hell.

    Another important point is that Adventists don’t believe in heaven immediately after death. Instead, you stay dead with your soul resting in Jesus until the day He comes to take you to heaven. Then the dead in Christ rise from their graves and those remaining on the earth are caught up to meet them with the Lord in the air.

    Next, Adventists believe Ellen G. White was the “spirit of prophecy” spoken of in Revelation 19:10. God gave her many visions during her lifetime and she also did miracles. Each one of her prophecies came true. While she isn’t a divine authority and certainly not equal to the writers of the Bible, she was an anointed prophetess, and her words remain a guide for the church.

    Then we believe that the Day of Atonement began on October 22, 1844, when God entered the Most Holy Place of His Temple and began looking through the record books of everyone who has ever lived. Jesus stands before Him, in the place where we should be, and is even now interceding on our behalf. We don’t know when Day of Atonement will be over – when it is, Jesus will come. That’s another reason we put a lot of emphasis on the Second Coming.

    As you can probably see, many Adventist beliefs focus on the end times especially. XD

    https://discipleshipwithjoy.com

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