October 25, 2018 at 5:07 pm #55093Selah CJW@selah-chelyah
@eden-anderson Ah, I feel the same way! PREACH IT, SISTERS!!! 🙂 This is the most amazing topic ever, BTW!
Assistant Guildmaster of the Phantom Awesome Meraki
~ Created to create ~October 25, 2018 at 5:24 pm #55098
@selah-chelyah Thank you for standing up for Manfred in my absence. 😛
Its funny that you say he was “feared and hated”. Among the Canadian/Australian/English airmen, he was definitely feared (probably because he was so good at killing people) but he was held in high regard and admired a lot. He was buried with full Australian military honours, which was more than a lot of Aussies got.
And if that’s the movie I’m thinking of, its fairly accurate, though I’m not sure I can speak for the sort of romance in it.
Mahalo keia huiʻanaOctober 25, 2018 at 5:33 pm #55101
By the way, nope, as far as I know I’ve never read a Civil War book, but for some reason or another, I’ve read a few Independence War books. There seems to be more of those in circulation here (maybe because that war is an important part of our heritage too? Teachers think its important to teach us about it??)
Mahalo keia huiʻanaOctober 25, 2018 at 5:43 pm #55106
I keep getting you two mixed up 😛 I just look at the lion and then find myself very confused.
So, Eden, that plot looks really cool! I can’t really speak for its accuracy, because I know little to nothing about the Civil War, but I think you could work with it. My only thing is that the idea of a son being disinherited because of the girl he marries has been done a lot. But I don’t think that one thing on its own breaks the plot.
Mahalo keia huiʻanaOctober 25, 2018 at 6:04 pm #55117
@eden-anderson Haha, I was trying to keep my biased feelings out of it. 😛 I actually don’t think what you believe about the Civil War has to do with where you’re from anymore. I’ve met people from northern states who are adamantly for the Confederacy, and people from the southern states who speak vehemently for the Union. To answer your question truthfully, I am below the Mason-Dixon line. 😉 I do prefer the South, but it isn’t really important to me which side someone supports as long as they get the facts straight, so I’ll put my non-biased historical facts here; then you can use them to get the history correct, but still keep supporting the North and everyone will be happy. 😛
One thing I’d like to make clear: I definitely believe slavery is wrong. 😉 I’m sure you didn’t have doubts about that, but the wording you used in your post made me want to clarify just in case.
Okay, on to the history. You’ve got a good start, and are very close to the background of the Civil War, but you’re missing a few facts. As you know, the Southern states were more interested in keeping their slaves, and the North was more interested in freeing the slaves. The Southern states felt the North was hypocritical for wanting to free the slaves, because the cotton industry was booming and the Northern textile mills depended heavily on the products from the south. At this time European countries had started to free their slaves, so there was a lot of “peer pressure” with the politicians wanting to keep up with the times.
Have you ever heard anyone say the Civil War was about “States’ Rights”? When the northern politicians suggested the federal government should free all the slaves, the southerners protested that such was not under the jurisdiction of the federal government, and laws should be made by individual states. This was because the Constitution states that all rights not granted to the federal government are left to the states. So there was the argument about whose job it was to free the slaves, if they were to be freed. Many southerners did not support slavery, and yet were worried that if the federal government were given the power to free slaves, rather than leaving the power to individual states, the government would continue to take more and more power which had not been originally delegated it in the Constitution. Robert E. Lee, for example, wished to fight for the North, but supported the South because he was from Virginia, and to Southerners, their States were more important than the federal government. At the time, they thought of the states as individual countries, and the union as an agreement to work together of sorts.
Does this make sense so far? Basically there are two ways to look at the same question. Ask a Northern supporter what the Civil War was about, and they’ll say that the North wanted to free the slaves and the South didn’t want them to. Ask a Southern supporter what the war was about, and they’ll say the Northern government was trying to take too much power and create laws which should have been left to the states to decide. Because these laws were about slavery, the southern supporter is really referencing the same thing the Northern supporter is, but they are viewing it from different perspectives. One thing we can note, is that whether supporting the Union or Confederacy, all historians agree the Federal government came out of the Civil War with much more power than it had before the war.
This post is really long… 😛 I am horrible at condensing points, so I’m sorry about that. That should do it for most of the history, so I’ll just post this and then work on addressing the plot, if that’s okay.
Have you ever read the Freedom Seekers series by Lois Walfrid Johnson? It’s my favorite his-fic based on the underground railroad.
Nonsense makes the heart grow fonder ~ Carolyn WellsOctober 25, 2018 at 6:12 pm #55119
@seekjustice Remember, I don’t study the actions of the soldiers and heads of state. I study the reactions of the women and children of the home front. I’m sure you’re right that the pilots fighting the Red Baron admired him as one accomplished at his art. I’m coming from the women and children who hear the stories of one great, invincible warrior, who killed their fathers, brothers and husbands.
The “invincible” part is where the fear comes in, and the “killed their family” is where the hate comes in. These women could not go out to fight with their men, and while they worked in the factories and fields to help with the war efforts, there was no reason for them to admire the skill the man who was seen as the slaughterer of any who came into his path. What did they care for skill, when the ones they loved were dying?
Does that explain my comment? 😉 I study history from a quite different perspective from most people, I suppose.
Nonsense makes the heart grow fonder ~ Carolyn WellsOctober 25, 2018 at 6:38 pm #55125
And you must remember that I also study the actions of the women and children on the home front…except that my particular area of interest the women were the sisters and mothers and wives and daughters of the Red Baron and his lot. 😉
But its true that I never really thought how the home front responded to specific people. I wonder how much they would have known about the aces in Germany and how much was kept secret? So as not to demoralise people, of course.
Mahalo keia huiʻanaOctober 25, 2018 at 7:53 pm #55133
@seekjustice Haha, 🙂 I guess you study more diverse areas than I do, since you study the battles and true historical figures as well as the lives of the people at home.
I don’t know how much was kept secret, I just remember reading about the women speaking of the Red Baron as though he was dangerous and horrible. At the time of WWI there was a lot of propaganda against the Germans (I know you know that. 😉 ) so even if they hid stuff, they probably exaggerated other stuff because a good way to make people fight for you is to make them mad at your enemy.
Nonsense makes the heart grow fonder ~ Carolyn WellsOctober 26, 2018 at 1:18 am #55212Libby@libby
Okay you guys, sorry I’m late here and haven’t read all the comments, so I only know half of what I’m supposed to be doing right now, but for one thing, I am excited to be on this thread! For another thing, what questions am I supposed to answer and what exactly are we doing here? Sorry if I totally missed something, but I just was super busy last several days and missed this entire thing. 😉
"Young people, you must pray, for your passions are strong and your wisdom is little."C.H.SpurgeonOctober 26, 2018 at 12:03 pm #55268Selah CJW@selah-chelyahOctober 26, 2018 at 6:42 pm #55402
You’re just more specific, I guess. And I’m the sort of person who always likes seeing both sides of the story, especially in wars. Which is probably why I defend the Germans a lot. Also because sometimes I don’t feel the Australians should be defended 😛 (they surely have to be the most rascally soldiers anyway.
Welcome! You don’t have to answer any questions if you don’t want to, but I was just asking some general ones: favourite time periods and people, what some of your historical fiction WIPs are about, etc. You can see my original post on the first page of the thread. 🙂
Mahalo keia huiʻanaOctober 26, 2018 at 7:14 pm #55407
Wow, you really know your Civil War history! Thanks for sharing; I definitely learned some stuff. (BTW, I’m really bad at condensing stuff too. 😀)
You can address the plot if you want, but at this point I don’t ever plan to take it back up again. It has died and may it rest in peace, as far as I’m concerned. 😀
It is really important to see both sides of a subject, especially wars. That’s very true. We humans have a habit of mutilating the truth of the way something in history went to suit our own selfish purposes and then we pass it down for generations until everybody just accepts it as gospel truth.
But now I’m curious…why do you defend the Germans??? I freaked out a little when I read that, then I got intensely curious, so I’d love if you’d clarify. 🙂
"But how could you live and have no story to tell?" - Fyodor DostoyevskyOctober 26, 2018 at 7:15 pm #55408
Welcome to the discussion @libby 😀
"But how could you live and have no story to tell?" - Fyodor DostoyevskyOctober 26, 2018 at 7:25 pm #55412
@eden-anderson Oh no! Why are you scrapping the project? 🙁
About your question for @seekjustice, she’s talking about WWI, so these Germans aren’t Nazis. 😉 I actually don’t know a whole lot about the politics of WWI, and I’m on the side of the Americans just because I’m an American, but I know war politics is very complicated.
I can actually give you a little defense for the Germans in WWII, though. They didn’t know how evil Hitler was when they “elected” him. He tricked everyone by promising them relief from the horrible (really horrible) conditions they were in after the Great War. Once he was in power, they were in over their heads, and though many (I don’t know the percentage, but it was a lot) of them didn’t agree with his politics, by then it was too late and they had to fight for him, because otherwise their families would be in danger. You could argue that they should do what was right anyway, but isn’t protecting your family right? So, it was a hard question. So yes, the Nazis did evil, scary things but not all Germans at the time of WWII believed what they were told to believe, and of course the men on the front lines were not the ones doing the dirty work persecuting the Jews and others back home.
So basically, I think you can feel sorry for them. While not condoning their actions, you can see why they did certain things.
And if you look at the Russians, whose side we were on in WWII, they were pretty bad too. Probably even as bad as the Germans. But it was politically advantageous for us to fight on their side, so we did. It was only a few years later that we switched and fought against them in the long-lasting Cold War. 😉 So our side wasn’t all that great either.
Make sense? (SeekJustice, sorry for kind of answering your question. You can elaborate on WWI, though, since I don’t know much about the politics of that. 😛 )
Nonsense makes the heart grow fonder ~ Carolyn WellsOctober 26, 2018 at 7:47 pm #55413
I’m scrapping my plot because it was cheesy. 😀
Okay, well yeah, that makes more sense about what @seekjustice said. When I read what she said, my mind instantly went to the Holocaust, and Auschwitz and all the horrible things that Hitler and the Nazi’s did. It’s true that there were Germans who didn’t agree with Hitler and those who even helped Jews escape.
And yeah, I can definitely sympathize with the general German and Russian population…the common people who got sucked up against their own will. But I don’t think we should just excuse the Nazi’s for their horrendous crimes against humanity on the basis that they wanted to protect their families. That’s unthinkable.
But yes, I get what your saying and I agree with you. There are so many factors that come to play in these sort of things. (Sometimes it just feels overwhelming…but isn’t that kinda what makes history so fascinating? 😀)
"But how could you live and have no story to tell?" - Fyodor Dostoyevsky
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