December 11, 2021 at 10:55 pm #145394Erynne@erynne
I’m trying to develop my villain but I want that “love to hate” relationship between my reader and villain. So to help me out can you tell me who some of your favorite villains are and why you love to hate them? (Or just love them. Or just hate them. 👍)
I don’t care if it’s movie, tv show, book or whatever.
- This topic was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by Erynne.
Be weird. Be random. Be who you are. Because you ever know who would love the person you hide.December 12, 2021 at 12:59 am #145399Grace Benham@gbfruitbat
@erynne here are my favorites that I can think of:
Darkstalker from Wings of Fire because he’s not really trying to be evil but ends up becoming the villain because of his choices
Prince Kasta from The Kinder Poison—completely infuriating, partly because he comes SO CLOSE to being good but he’s still evil!
This is perhaps the greatest risk any of us will ever take: to be seen as we truly are.December 12, 2021 at 1:53 am #145401R.M. Archer@r-m-archer
King Leck in the Graceling Realm series (which I would only recommend with caveats for content, unfortunately XP) is great because he’s actually intimidating. He’s a genuine threat to the protagonist. Plus he’s just scary. It’s freaky what he finds fascinating. He’s definitely a psychopath. So he’s well-done and easy to hate because he’s actually scary and dangerous.
Damien Dahrk (not sure about that spelling, but it’s close) from Arrow is fun for his sense of humor. He’s a personable villain. And I like Loki for similar reasons. Charming villains are fun to love and hate.
And both Damien and Loki also have people they care about. If I recall correctly (it’s been a really long time and I didn’t watch Arrow much), Damien has a daughter that he’d do anything to take care of. And Loki, of course, cares about and wants to impress/connect with Thor. Connections are another thing that make villains feel human. (If you want a human-feeling villain. Leck worked for his lack of empathy/human connection, so it depends on what you’re going for.)
I don’t know if this is helpful, but I wrote a blog post a while back about traits that help flesh out antagonists and connect them with the reader. (If it’s not helpful/not what you’re looking for, feel free to just ignore it. 🙂 )
Fantasy/dystopian/sci-fi author. Mythology nerd. Worldbuilding enthusiast. Singer. Fan of classic literatDecember 12, 2021 at 2:18 am #145402Emily Waldorf@emily-waldorf
Iago from Shakespeare’s Othello, and King Claudius from Hamlet are both villains that make me seethe with rage. Denethor (from the LotR books–I haven’t watched the movies so I can’t speak to them) is an example of a “villain” whom I pity, yet despise.
Also Loki from the Marvel movies. He’s a villain at least some of the time, and I go from sympathizing with him a lot, to wanting to give him a good right hook, to cheering for him.
Your life is not your own so keep your hands off it. ~Sherlock HolmesDecember 12, 2021 at 1:40 pm #145415Cathy@this-is-not-an-alien
Basta and Capricorn from Inkheart, they were just set up so well and had such vivid imagery associated with them I loved it!!!
Locker, Opener (ok Opener’s actually the MC, but he’s just as morally questionable…no wait the other two are complete loons he’s just the average morally questionable dark hero and I adore stats girl!) and Propeller from this webtoon called Locker and Opener, I can’t explain any more but you must read it to see!!!!
Am I the only one who’s just like a sucker for “the villain might have caught feeling for the hero in this really twisted, creepy but enthralling way where you just don’t quite know whether he genuinely cares or not well into the story”? I like that dynamic. But not an actual ship, not usually!!! Just a creepy/intriguing dynamic like some of the grittier Batman and Joker dynamics (depending on which version I don’t really follow Batman but my sister does and I watched the live action once and like. All the villains. Love to hate.)
Don't let the voices in your head drive you insane;only some of them can drive; most are underageDecember 12, 2021 at 4:48 pm #145426Rose@rose-colored-fancy
I’m trying to develop my villain but I want that “love to hate” relationship between my reader and villain. So to help me out can you tell me who some of your favorite villains are and why you love to hate them? (Or just love them. Or just hate them. )
In all honesty I can’t think of a hard and fast example but I do know what my favorite villains have in common. They’re having fun. Or at least, they’re confident and acting in their comfort zone.
I adore the classic “Mwahaha!! *cue nefarious laughter and cloak swishing*” kind of villain. Villains that are confident and if they’re not actively enjoying themselves they’re at least satisfied with what they’re doing.
It’s also kind of horrifiying that they’re enjoying their villainy. Just, villains that completely give themselves to it. They can have gray morality and doubt stuff but I need to see the villain completely indulge in villainy with extreme competence every now and then. Heals the soul.
Without darkness, there is no light. If there was no nighttime, would the stars be as bright?December 12, 2021 at 4:56 pm #145428Erynne@erynne
I’ll get back to all of this later but @Noah-Cochran and @rose-colored-fancy y’all’s got my permission to have your villain discussion here so I can stalk it easier and so Grace can keep her thread on that subject
Be weird. Be random. Be who you are. Because you ever know who would love the person you hide.December 13, 2021 at 4:20 pm #145473
@josiah I once more beg you to check the spam filter for one of my long, link-filled posts =P
"...the one with whom he so sought to talk has already interceded for him." -The Master and MargaritaDecember 13, 2021 at 8:02 pm #145472
@erynne Thank you for the topic invite!
I really like the article by @r-m-archer , and it brought to mind that there is a distinction between antagonists opposing the protagonist and outright villains. I’m going to talk about villains, but I’m assuming they’re also antagonists.
Lucifer from DC comics, specifically Sandman by Neil Gaiman and Hellblazer during Garth Ennis’s run
LUCIFER: Oh — Morpheus? I swore once that I would destroy you, did I not?
DREAM: Yes. You did.
LUCIFER: Well, we are now outside the bounds of Hell… This is for you, Dream Lord. Take it.
DREAM: The key to Hell?
LUCIFER: Exactly. It’s yours now. Perhaps it will destroy you, and perhaps it won’t. But I doubt it will make your life any easier. It’s all yours, now, Morpheus. You’re the sole monarch of a locked and empty Hell. Perhaps I ought to have given it to you with my best wishes. I could have told you that I hoped it would bring your happiness. But somehow… somehow I doubt it will.
In these comics, Lucifer is the ruler of Hell. He is overwhelmingly powerful compared to protagonists Dream (Sandman) and Constantine (Hellblazer). He tends to enter the story when the protags want something from him.
Lucifer hates Dream and Constantine. He longs for them to fall lawfully into his hands, to destroy them for eternity. He’s a charming, vile force of nature who is at least as intelligent as the protags, but also supremely arrogant.
This villain’s strength comes from being iconic (every reader knows what the Devil’s about) and from creating immense stakes by his sheer presence. Despite being himself one of the most powerful beings in the universe, someone Odin and King Oberon treat with respect, even Dream has to use every tool at his disposal to outwit Lucifer. He doesn’t always come away unscathed.
As for Constantine, he essentially lives every moment of his life trying to escape the inevitable fate he knows he deserves for all his shenanigans. To him, Lucifer is an ever-present looming threat from whom there is no escape.
This role of spite, hatred, and absurd power is also seen in Morgoth in Tolkien’s The Children of Hurin, as Morgoth curses Hurin’s entire family and forces him to watch as they destroy themselves.
Senator Armstrong (and most of the other bosses) from Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance
Violence breeds violence
But in the end it has to be this way
I’ve carved my own path
You followed your wrath
But maybe we’re both the same
The world has turned
And so many have burned
But nobody is to blame
Yet staring across this barren wasted land
I feel new life will be born
Beneath the blood stained sand
This is a crazy video game about a cyborg ninja fighting a private military company of other cyborg ninjas. This game comes at the end of a long series of games asking various thematic questions about war. The theme of this game could be described as “No matter how much we go to war to end war, war will never end.” The different bosses of the game have different reasons for why they fight, from “It’s what I was born to do” to “I enjoy it.” Each of them reflects a different facet of the main character, a former child soldier trying to prove to himself that he can be something more than a soldier despite being a bloodthirsty monster at heart.
The final boss of the game is someone with almost identical philosophy to the protag. This emphasizes one of the other core themes of the series: “People fight because of political allegiances more than different ideologies.”
The game has a fantastic responsive soundtrack with gloriously on-the-nose themes for each boss, and the final theme could apply to both Armstrong and the protag Raiden.
Grand Admiral Thrawn from Timothy Zahn’s Heir to the Empire series
THRAWN: You served too long under Lord Vader, Captain. I Have no qualms about accepting a useful idea merely because it wasn’t my own. My position and ego are not at stake here.
I know Zahn has rebooted Thrawn to fit the Disney-era Star Wars canon, but I haven’t read those books yet, so this only refers to him in the books he wrote decades ago.
Thrawn was an anti-Vader. Where Darth Vader was a juggernaut madman who flouted Imperial doctrine and did whatever he wanted to whomever he wanted, terrifying in his physical presence, Thrawn is an intellectual alien (in a culture which considers aliens subhuman) content to serve an empire which really doesn’t care that much about him outside his competence.
If an underling makes a mistake and takes responsibility for their actions, Thrawn shows them grace. If they go beyond the call of duty, he remembers their loyalty and capability. He does not suffer disrespect, does not tolerate deviation from military discipline, but does so because he believes it the best way to run a ship, not because he feels he is better than those around him.
And, well, Thrawn’s star destroyer fleet obliterates pretty much every fleet he fights. His study of the art of various alien races, he claims, gives him deep insight into their psychologies and warfare doctrines.
A tactical genius, a gracious leader, Thrawn commands the reader’s respect for his heroic qualities. Were circumstances different, he might easily have been one of the good guys.
Attributes I appreciate (not all of which are demonstrated above)
- Competence – Readers respect any character who is good at their job and able to take care of business. Incompetence, unless it’s couched in cuteness or tragedy, is one of the fastest ways to make a reader annoyed at a character.
- Power – Villains need the capacity to do real harm to the protags if things go wrong. In most cases, a villain should be able to at least match the protag’s power (physically, politically, or however) in some way.
- Loyalty – Villains should be kind or generous or gracious to someone. It feels good to treat other people well. Not even the most evil people are exempt from that. Even if a villain isn’t willing to give up what’s most precious to them for the sake of a friend, they should still be willing to go to some lengths to help the people who serve them or who have been their lifelong friends or just who make them laugh.
- Antagonism based on allegiance – The knowledge that an antagonist opposes a protag simply because it’s their job can be powerful. There’s no reasoning with this sort of character, and it can be a powerful tool to show the protag that the person or cause to whom they pledge their allegiance can be at least as impactful as their personal philosophy. Extra points if you play into the way people in real life will often justify their support of a problematic person organization that does, in fact, clash with their philosophy just because they’ve already been loyal for so long.
- Antagonism based on differing philosophy – The clash of characters who represent different answers to the same ideological question is one of the strongest thematic techniques available to literature. @Josiah has an awesome course introducing this concept.
Attributes I Would Like to See Less Of
- Tragic backstory – Evil people don’t need a convoluted reason to distrust and misunderstand the entire world, which is usually a tragic backstory’s purpose. This is easy to use as an excuse for the villain’s behavior, a cheap way to make the audience feel bad for their wasted potential. That element of wasted potential can be powerful, though, if the protag shares a very similar backstory and proves that different choices could have led to a better outcome.
- Maniacal Evil – Disney villains are great in Disney movies, but it’s extremely hard to make them work in a non-visual medium, especially if you write for an audience above Middle Grade. The closer the rest of your story comes to real life, the more icky and unbelievable it becomes to look at a villain who has what boils down to a psychopathic and childlike disregard for the experiences of anyone outside themselves.
- Non-Presence – Sauron isn’t a good villain in Lord of the Rings. He’s a force of nature, not a character. If you have a Dark Lord, make him an actual viewpoint character who does something other than brood on his fortress throne. Sauron is fine as an element in LotR, but he shouldn’t be used as an example of active force against the protag.
"...the one with whom he so sought to talk has already interceded for him." -The Master and MargaritaDecember 13, 2021 at 8:03 pm #145507Josiah DeGraaf@josiahDecember 13, 2021 at 8:43 pm #145521
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