October 4, 2018 at 2:18 pm #50806
@itisastarrynight, Hey there! Welcome. I have looked at all of those verses, and understand why you interpret them the way you do… Some of that we covered higher up, and some of it we didn’t, but if you would like, I can pull them back up. But it seems less like your brought it up to debate, and more just to reveal scripture, which is great! And we don’t have to debate it any further if you would prefer.
@the-fledgling-artist, And no, we don’t have to carry on the debate much further if you do not wish. We can agree to disagree 🙂 That’s a Christian Liberty. I have more to say in reply to your last comment… but we can just leave it at this.
Published author, student in writing, works with HazelGracePress.comOctober 4, 2018 at 2:20 pm #50807
And just to be clear, one does not have to be a Christian to agree to disagree. But at the point a non-christian says that there’s a void created that makes it harder to relate and hold fellowship. As Christians we can hold fellowship and still disagree on things.
Published author, student in writing, works with HazelGracePress.comOctober 4, 2018 at 4:25 pm #50827The Fledgling Artist@the-fledgling-artist
@wordsmith While it seems kind of pointless to keep debating, I am kind of curious what you have to say on my last comment. 🙂 So if you wanna share go ahead. I think you’re right though and we’ll just have to agree to disagree haha.
"Though I'm not yet who I will be, I'm no longer who I was."October 4, 2018 at 5:02 pm #50835
Okay! Will do then.
Whether you’re claiming nonresistance or passiveness (went back and re-read your definition 🙂 ), I don’t think Jesus is either. He didn’t fight those who were bringing him to the cross, but that was because of his purpose of being there. He was there to die for our sins, and be our substitutionary atonement. But we see that when he saw the un-holly work in the temple, he was actively resistant of that. Whatever it was he did there, was forceful.
And on top of that, it’s not that Christ is against government… He set up a law for Monarchs. I believe (which is different from an opinion), that as Christians we are to be active in being torch bearers, for the kingdom to come. We share the gospel, we protect the innocent as is seen in Psalm 82:4 “Rescue weak and needy people. Help them escape the power of wicked people.” Proverbs 24:11 “Rescue captives condemned to death, and spare those staggering toward their slaughter.” It’s part of being torch bearers.
Thus… I hold myself back before the dam breaks and I don’t stop like I said I would. xD
So… just so you know, I do have more to say, if you ever feel a burning to take this back up. 🙂 But I shall stop.
@theinconceivable1, that doesn’t you and I can’t continue. I’d love to keep it up, if you would!
Published author, student in writing, works with HazelGracePress.comOctober 4, 2018 at 10:10 pm #50942theinconceivable1@theinconceivable1
@storyjoy: my novel was/is (Im not totally giving up on it yet… XD) the stereotypical medieval setting with this kid named Aiden who comes to be a Christian yet struggles with Gods goodness (wonder were that plot came from right! XD) I can send it to you if you want… You obviously wouldn’t have to read all of it, just as much as you wanted… Hey you want to trade novels?!? Maybe I could actually start writing mine again XD.
@eden-anderson: ok! how do we do this? do we start a thread or what?
@Wordsmith: Alright! I’ll start at the begining “a very good place to start” (welcome to NAME THAT QUOTE)
Ok so you “strongly believe it is okay to kill in the defense of another person” (which, at the moment I have no clue if I agree or disagree… I feel like once we answer weather personal self-defense is ok then we’ll go on to corporate self-defense.) Ok so you would be willing to kill the other guy? (even though you would do everything in your power to avoid it) Well, @the-fledgling-artist I hope you dont mind if I quote you, ‘“I would rather die and go to heaven, then defend myself and send someone to hell.” Because if someone is trying to murder you, pretty good chance they aren’t a Christian.’ I mean, she raises a pretty good point in my mind… So, without the whole “If I dont kill him (or her) they will hurt other people (aka corporate self-defense)” argument it seems like the christ like the thing to do would be to just die. I mean, thats what Christ did right? Hey, it might just lead your attacker to be saved! (but like I said, much easyer said then done)
XD dont worry you can pull out all your “no one can snatch them from my father’s hand” verses in a bit, we’ve just got to get this done first!
ok,I think I’m cool with you action to faith ratio : D
Alright, so we still have the Jesus telling his disciples to take up sword’s verse (which I still have no Idea how to answer… any of you Mennonites got any idea?) and the (in my mind) debatable Peter and his sword verse. The reason I deem it debatable is your claiming to know Jesus’s intentions which honestly seem quite unclear… especially because he tells Peter NOT to defend himself (even though his intentions for doing that does seem clear)
Alright, thats a good point but i think its important to note we only see the apostles dish out judgment within the church 1 Corinthians 5:12 says “What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?” so I don’t believe this ‘authority to exercise judgment’ would exist in the case of self defense (unless the attacker is within the church, which is unlikely)
Like you said, i cant think of a verse were killing in self-defense is prohibited either… I mean we do have the OT command not to murder witch we both agree applies to the NT. And yes we do have OT references where self-defense seems to be “all goods’ as the kiwi’s say it. but we cant applied that to us necessarily as we are in a different context + under a new covenant (the covenant of grace) so my proposition is this: with the coming of the new covenant killing in (debatably individual only) self-defense was one of those things no longer to be practiced. Jesus tells us to love our enemies (which probably does not include killing them and sending them to hell). and we do not have a single occurrence of NT individual self-defense (though we do have the Jesus “take swords” verse. However since we never see the apostles using said swords and, rather than fighting back, crying out to God to forgive their enemies as they die I think we can assume self-defense is not what Jesus meant by that command) also we have verses like “For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.” Ephesians 6: 12 if we look at the core of Jesus teaching its all about love. Jesus doesn’t reach people by fighting, he reaches them by dying for them and thus it would make sense if we are to do the same.
lastly, in response to your last point: I dont see how this is self-defense? I remember this passage, but these guys went and killed an enemy, not even in defense of theirselves but to get water for David. Now if anything, this would be defence of others (or corporate self-defence as I’ve been coining it) but I dont think it’s that eather as David obviously won’t die if they don’t bring him the water (cuz, as you said, he offers it to the Lord and doesn’t drink it) So I dont think this is very relevant, maybe I’m wrong…
(sorry I would say more but I have to go soon. And thanks for not being offended : D!)
@everyone else XD I’m sorry guys, I just dont have time to respond to everything! I’ve GTG, talk to you guys later!
INTJ- trying to grow into real wisdom; James 3:17October 4, 2018 at 10:16 pm #50945
(The sound of music)
I’m still reading the post, but had to reply to that one.
Published author, student in writing, works with HazelGracePress.comOctober 5, 2018 at 8:39 am #50976storyjoy@storyjoy
@theinconceivable1 Nice!! *loves those stereotypical medieval settings XD*
Sure, go ahead and send it! 😀 Not sure when/if I’ll read it… 😉 But there’s no harm in sending! ;D
*cartwheels out*October 5, 2018 at 2:47 pm #51052
Hey nice to meet you!😀 Are you an artist or a writer? or both? 😀
Ummm…that’s probably how you would do it…but I think we’re supposed to focus on writing in this forum, not on starting fan clubs or other distracting stuff…😀 But technically I’m not following that rule either when I get into arguments about self-defense, so I kinda just shot myself in the foot.
I feel the same way as you about this subject of killing and self-defense…it’s almost inexhaustible. There’s a lot more that could be said. But I have stuff I need to do and I’ll let the @inconceivable1 defend our side. 😀😀😀
So long everybody on this thread!
"But how could you live and have no story to tell?" - Fyodor DostoyevskyOctober 5, 2018 at 3:00 pm #51057
Alrighty! Sounds good! 😀
Send Daeus my regards.
Published author, student in writing, works with HazelGracePress.comOctober 5, 2018 at 4:26 pm #51072October 5, 2018 at 5:19 pm #51096
*hands over a cup of tea and walks away into the unknown*
"But how could you live and have no story to tell?" - Fyodor DostoyevskyOctober 5, 2018 at 5:21 pm #51099October 5, 2018 at 6:21 pm #51106
*accepts cup of tea eagerly* Ahhhh…my favorite, Jabberwocky. Oh, it is good to have friends! 😍
One quick question before I disappear. How is the best way to incorporate yourself into a guild that is already well up and running? I feel like I’m barging into something. You know, they all have become friends, they know whats happening and how stuff works and I don’t know anything and I’m feeling slightly lost. It’s almost like walking late into a party that’s been going on for a couple of hours…do you know what I mean? I don’t think I know anybody in New Wessex.
"But how could you live and have no story to tell?" - Fyodor DostoyevskyOctober 5, 2018 at 6:24 pm #51108storyjoy@storyjoy
@eden-anderson Yup, I just joined a guild (and therefore have no better clue than you do) but I’m honored to have been tagged. XD Idk, I just, well, barged right in. 😛 Everyone seems really nice and welcoming, so I didn’t really have too much trouble kinda getting involved. I doubt anyone but you would think you were “barging in”. 😉 😀
*cartwheels out*October 5, 2018 at 6:27 pm #51109
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