November 25, 2018 at 10:31 pm #61473
@emgc: “So let me try again, and please tell me if it makes sense. What I believe is that this may be a warning against wandering away from Christ, NOT falling away. To encourage us to stay completely strong in our faith, not faltering due to dangers in the world that may entice us to turn away from Jesus. NOT saying that our faith can possibly fail.” Ok cool! Well that does ‘make sense’ I just dont think its right XD. I gave a pretty in depth analysis of this verse for selah but incase you dont want to go find that post here’s a summary: it says ‘partakes of the Holy spirit” which means this is talking about real christians cuz the Holy Spirit is the seal of our salvation. Second it literally says ‘fallen away’ and “it is impossible to renew them again to repentance”. Both of which state repentance is something these people once had.
“But I cannot possibly believe that this verse refers to someone being able to lose their salvation because it goes in direct contradiction to all of these passages” You see why this logic breaks down right? You can’t believe the interpretation of the verse because it contradicts what you already believe (supported though it may be). You can’t ignore evidence simply because it goes against your convictions. As for “many things in the Bible appear to be contradictions to our faulty human understandings, but that doesn’t make this one of them” why does this not make them one of them? What’s the criteria for you to decree this a biblical mystery like Jesus or the Trinity? Cuz if you ask me it would be ‘ verses in direct and clear contradiction to other verses’ or something like that. “Which I have.” (in the words of Inigo Montoya : D) so ya, I guess I need you to give me a good reason why this is not a biblical mystery. “So please, explain to me why these verses DON’T mean that all true believers shall have eternal life.” *blinks twice* I mean, to me it seems pretty clear! I mean you don’t have to do some ‘in depth’ analysis! Just read it: “For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, [d]since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. ” I don’t think anyone, reading this for the first time, would be like “well isn’t that nice. As long as I’m a true believer I can never fall away…” XD. So ya, I guess that’s my explanation… Moving on!
“What’s the reason behind your ‘illogical logic’? Am I missing something?” the reason, my dear friend, is we have two clearly contradictory bible verses. As such I do not try and understand how such things can be yet they are.
“Okay, can I please do the lazy thing here and refer you to an article?” O Gosh… Well let’s see what the internet has to say XD
Ok so this is about all this guy has to say on the matter of this particular verse: “As far as the context is concerned, we must read the entire section beginning with chapter 9 and ending with chapter 11. Doing so provides a perspective on 11:22 which broadens Paul’s meaning from individual salvation (which this section is not about) to a “macro” perspective of Jews and Gentiles as to whom God grants election and in His sovereign authority chooses to impart faith and redemption. Paul is speaking to Gentiles, emphasizing that (1) God’s election of Jews vs. Gentiles is His own decision and a matter of His own authority; (2) God can move His election – not to a particular person and then snatching it away from that same person – but towards or away from Jews as a people, and towards or away from Gentiles.”
Ok, here’s the verse earlier where Paul says who he’s talking to: “But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my [g]fellow countrymen and save some of them. ” Romans 11: 13-14 NASB Now I think you should notice the language Paul uses. First he says: “I am speaking to you who are Gentiles.” which, yes, is corporate. But then he says “if somehow I might move to jealousy my [g]fellow countrymen and save some of them.” which is obviously talking about individuals within the group of the Jews. He then goes on to say ”But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the [h]rich root of the olive tree,” first, why, If he is only talking about Jew’s as a whole does he says ‘some’ and ‘branches’? You see if I say “Some of the americans were broken off…” I’m talking about individuals within America. But if I wanted to say america as a group, as this guy believes, then I would say “America was broken off” See the difference? Also consider how he says “and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them.” This singularity could mean one of two things, One: Paul is talking to the Gentiles as a whole and this ‘you’ is really a ‘you all’ (however this explanation doesn’t make sense because then why did he talk about the Jews as individuals?) or two Paul is talking to each individual. (which does make sense.) It’s like Paul saying “and you, being an American, were grafted in among them.” So, I believe I’ve made my case that Paul is undead speaking to individuals at least to some degree and thus can be applied to us as individuals.
*puts his hands on his hips and admires his work* Ya I feel pretty good about that defence : D. Look forward to your reply!
Ok first take a look at this “But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.” Now, off the top of my head, I can’t think of a single time where Jesus is referred to as ‘the master’ of people he has not saved. Can you think of one? Also, diving into your “He paid the price for ALL of us– believer and non-believer alike” theory, I’ve thougth about this some and I’m still uncertain. However would you claim then, if salvation is a ransom (because that the kind of language this particular verse uses) that Jesus, when He died on the cross, earned all the money to buy everyone’s freedom. Yet, unless they accept his money, they are not free?
“Hope everything I said made sense. ” Yep! In the words of Westly “Truly you have a dizzying intellect” (*closes his eyes and hopes* please respond with the return quote…)
Anyway, talk to you soon!
INTJ- trying to grow into real wisdom; James 3:17November 25, 2018 at 10:34 pm #61474
Just because you don’t take defeat easily doesn’t mean it won’t happen.
I have no doubt that it will work. -grins maniacally-
"You can dance with my henchman."November 25, 2018 at 10:50 pm #61475
“3,047 beat that!” DX No! my title *falls to he knees and rain begins to fall in sheets* NOOOOOOO!!!!!
“I didn’t mean that he tolerated sin, I was just trying to say that it was temporarily taken care of, since the animals’ blood didn’t really atone for the sins of the people. does that make more sense?” Yep, I think I’m good with that!
Ok I do have one (well more then one but the others are all due to the fact I think you only have half the picture XD) problem with your logic and its when you said this right here: “Yes, we can choose whether we want to say something hurtful or something kind to a friend or family member, but we do not control whether we are given the grace that is required for us to repent and believe in the first place! It’s a circular thing, but we are given grace to do harder things that we need more grace for.” The very existence of free will, of any kind, big or small, is illogical. Unless your going to appeal to mystery I dont think you can have any kind of real free will and still be a Calvinist… The very idea of man being able to operate autonomously and make real freewill choices makes him God. (at least by my logic : D) Anyway, excited to hear your thoughts!
INTJ- trying to grow into real wisdom; James 3:17November 25, 2018 at 10:55 pm #61477
(from school that is : D)
INTJ- trying to grow into real wisdom; James 3:17November 25, 2018 at 10:57 pm #61480
Yay! That’s great!
"You can dance with my henchman."November 26, 2018 at 9:37 am #61523Selah CJW@selah-chelyah
@emgc I agree with everything you said. Right on!
@serenity Totally agree with your view on the grace of God in saving those whom He has chosen and predestined. His amazing mercy in saving any of us is…phenomenal beyond words!!! As far as witnessing goes, I would also say that, beyond the fact that it becomes a great desire to do so as a Christian, Christ told us to do so! It is the medium through which He works. We are to witness to others as HE told us to, and through prayer and His Spirit`s leading, and He will then (amazingly!) use our feeble human efforts to convict their hearts of the truth of His Word. Romans 10 says,
14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
So we are the human tool through which the Lord convicts hearts in light of His word, and through Him alone as we are witnessing. It is Him alone, indeed, but through human tools! Otherwise, we would all go ahead to heaven as there would be nothing for us to do here on earth but wait.
You said what you did about salvation being a gift really well! Agree with you wholeheartedly. It is awesome to have another long-post writer with the same beliefs on her, as well… really. 😀
Amen! May it be to God`s glory completely!!!
Hallelujah! Something we all agree on… the atoning work of Christ. 😛
Assistant Guildmaster of the Phantom Awesome Meraki
~ Created to create ~November 26, 2018 at 11:12 am #61528Selah CJW@selah-chelyah
Okay, so with your disagreements back there on my page 47 post…..!
As far as the “heavenly gift”, I do not study the Greek language and thus cannot say what the proper interpretation is in light of the context, which is, I believe, essentially what we disagree on at this point. And I think the “heavenly gift” could be Christ or the Holy Spirit as it is still a gift, even if not received! Then you summed up what he had generally said at that point, which I agree with:
“It’s possible to have intellectual knowledge of the word and an experience of God and not be saved.”
But are you saying you agree or disagree with that statement?
I agree that the Holy Spirit is the seal of true Christianity…even if we cannot see whether or not others and ourselves are truly saved like He can, at least initially. So, your writing style is a bit tough to understand… are the two “maybe`s” Jesus or the Holy Spirit being the “heavenly gift” referred to in the verse? If so, then that seems somewhat beside your point. But either way, those two things were “heavenly gifts” to mankind, whether or not that is what the verse is referring to. Like I said above, I am not a Greek scholar, but he is, and that is why I refer to his study notes. The Greek word used, although, is <em>photizo, </em>which is translated, “to give light by knowledge or teaching”. It means to be mentally aware of something, to be instructed or informed. But it does not carry any note of response…. of acceptance or rejection, belief or disbelief. No life changing relationship there. And the notes that are in every other passage dealing with the redeemed speaks in terms of repentance, turning from the old, a life change, etc… This does not have that. Just because Paul referred to salvation before in Hebrews does not mean that is what he is talking about here.
Okay, by your own standards you cannot say something is crazy unless you prove why, so that point was invalid! 😀
As far as the “renew them to repentance”, I believe that he said that because they had reached that point of repentance at the full revelation of truth spoken of, and he was warning them not to go back because it would be impossible of them to come back up to that point of repentance after rejecting it. They would come up to the point of salvation and then miss the opportunity that the Lord was giving them due to their hardness of heart and unbelief. And I suppose that brings us back to predestination again….
I see what you are saying about abandoning or renouncing something when you have not already been at that place or done that thing, but I still disagree. Salvation and God`s son were a free gift to everyone, and in that sense everyone has already tasted of it and been in that position as creation reveals it to them, as well. (Among so many other things..!) And from that they renounce it. They had knowledge, and now they were choosing to renounce and forget and no truly believe the truth and put it into action. They had come to the tip of the jumping off place, and they recanted what they had learned in their mind and choose not to put it in to their heart and live in realization that the truth was truth. Does that make sense?
Thank you all for your patience. Appreciate you waiting for my rather far-between posts! 😀 And keep up with the scripture verses as much as possible in your posts to support your thoughts as well!! BTW, Prince Inc, your story is really neat… thanks for sharing it! And I wrote a whole bunch of notes and stuff for the next verse you gave me, so I can go ahead and dive in to that one when possible, or we can finish and agree on this one first…?!?!? What to do? 🙂
- This reply was modified 1 year, 8 months ago by Selah CJW.
Assistant Guildmaster of the Phantom Awesome Meraki
~ Created to create ~November 26, 2018 at 5:01 pm #61586
@theinconceivable1 – yes, I do appeal to the mysteries of God to quantify/justify/explain free will. Its a slippery slope that people start going down when they say they are Calvinists and then say that God is over all things including their sin. And though there may be truth there, I try not to deal with that unless I have to, because that in essence says that God sins, which I wholeheartedly believe to be false. so, I do start with the idea that I can’t know everything and that some things are just beyond me when I attempt to tackle such subjects. (=
@selah-chelyah – thanks! I didn’t realize how many people were following that discussion, but im glad that we agree there too! I hope I was clear about everything….
I loved what you said about witnessing/salvation. That we are the tools that God uses to bring about his will. Beautifully put.
lover of our Lord, words, and music as his writing tools
LOVES COOKIES, KNIVES, AND MUSIC!!!!November 26, 2018 at 7:43 pm #61618Catwing@catwing
@theinconceivable1 I totally missed that opportunity.
I meant thinking that Kari said, “You should’ve seen me when I was literally hanging upside down off the couch drawing.” In reply to, “Drop…your…sword,” I commanded; each word dripped with authority.”
Oh… Why do you not like hearing other people’s dreams?
Me in a dark basement: I hope there’s nothing dangerous in here… *overactive imagination making the shapes of shadows into things* *fear* *five minutes later* *eyes adjusted to the dark* *grinning* *feels like a spy* *mentally: I sat in the corner. Watching. Waiting. Nothing could see me. But I could see them.* *sits very still* *epic*
Not my worst nightmare. Scary a bit in real life though…
@emgc *nods* My brother can be random too…
When your wings are weak and you feel like you can't fly any farther you're halfway there!November 26, 2018 at 9:55 pm #61644
@selah-chelyah: alright! Let’s get into this!
Ok so you said
“And I think the “heavenly gift” could be Christ or the Holy Spirit as it is still a gift, even if not received!”
And I totally agree. I think I over complicated things earlier so I’ll try and be clearer! : D
““It’s possible to have intellectual knowledge of the word and an experience of God and not be saved.”
But are you saying you agree or disagree with that statement?”
Depending on the quality of the experience yes. Let’s just make that a ‘I agree’ s for simplicity’s sake.
“So, your writing style is a bit tough to understand… are the two “maybe`s” Jesus or the Holy Spirit being the “heavenly gift” referred to in the verse? If so, then that seems somewhat beside your point.”
Ya it was XD sorry, I got kinda rambly! All I was attempting to say was this: I don’t believe we can say ‘enlightened’ certainly only means intellectual knowledge and ‘tasted of the heavenly gift’ (heavenly gift referring to God, either in the form of the Holy Spirit or Jesus) certainly means only a physical or surface level experience and not an intimate one. That’s all I was trying to say but, at this point, I’m willing to assume both true for the sake of the argument
“The Greek word used, although, is photizo, which is translated, “to give light by knowledge or teaching”. It means to be mentally aware of something, to be instructed or informed. But it does not carry any note of response…. of acceptance or rejection, belief or disbelief. No life changing relationship there.”
sorry, I don’t quite know what this is referring too… However, since I think it has to do with my whole confusing bit on heavenly gifts I’m just going to ignore it for now. (sorry, I didn’t mean to be confusing with that ‘heavenly gift’ bit!)
“Okay, by your own standards you cannot say something is crazy unless you prove why, so that point was invalid!”
ok uh, which point is that? I actually have no Idea which point your referring too. XD here you know what, I’ll list the points I want make below to try and clear things up!
Premise 1: Hebrews 6 is talking about what were true, saved believers:
EVIDENCE: they are said to have ‘partaken of the Holy Spirit’ and, as you said “I agree that the Holy Spirit is the seal of true Christianity”. These people have partaken of the Holy spirit, thus they were true christians.
Premise 2: Hebrews 6 also says these people really lost their salvation.
EVIDENCE: “and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance” the term ‘fall away’, as earlier discussed, means ‘to be unfaithful’ or ‘to abandon or renounce’. And the phrase ‘it is impossible to renew them to repentance’ shows they are no longer repentant.
Conclusion: True believers can lose their salvation.
Ok, that feels good! So you were saying
“they had reached that point of repentance at the full revelation of truth spoken of, and he was warning them not to go back because it would be impossible of them to come back up to that point of repentance after rejecting it. ”
Which is a good argument. It just doesn’t work if the believers were actually saved, actually true christians. So prove that the people in Hebrews were not saved and you’ve won. : D
If you don’t mind I would like to come to a conclusion on this first : D (also, I’m slightly scared for my second verse XD)
Thanks for talking to me and I look forward to hearing your response!
@serenity: Ok cool! Appealing to mystery is great XD.
@catwing: “Oh… Why do you not like hearing other people’s dreams?” The way I see it dreams are like mind barf XD. You don’t have control over them (although I guess that’s kinda debatable…) their 90% random and mostly useless. HOWEVER, I might, if you really want me to, put up with you dreams if you care to share them… maybe XD. But ya, thats my thoughts on dream sharing!
Thinks for a minute. What’s scarier than the dark?… Ok, ya. I have no idea what your worst nightmare is XD
INTJ- trying to grow into real wisdom; James 3:17November 26, 2018 at 11:06 pm #61697
You should like dreams. I got a really good storyline idea from one.
My worst nightmare would be something involving heights and giant spiders. (I dunno if you’ve ever watched Harry Potter. [Possible spoiler alert. I don’t think it is but sorry if it is.] But when I watched Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets I freaked out because of Aragog.)
Also. I JUST WATCHED THE PRINCESS BRIDE!!! I finally understand your obsession with it. 🙂 And all the quotes. (-chokes bc you’ve used a Princess Bride quote in pretty much every other sentence- [Not really. But it sure seems like it.])
- This reply was modified 1 year, 8 months ago by Veraza Winterknight.
"You can dance with my henchman."November 26, 2018 at 11:32 pm #61712
@kari-karast: YES! “What did this do to you? Tell me. And remember, this is for posterity so please, be honest. How do you feel?”
INTJ- trying to grow into real wisdom; James 3:17November 26, 2018 at 11:34 pm #61714
@kari-karast – finally! you are now a fully fledged writer and/or homeschooler (that’s what gets said in my circles, anyway), and you will NEVER, EVER forget how amazing it is until your six year old brother runs around screaming random, unrelated quotes over and over again.
If you don’t happen to have a six year old brother, you’re out of luck. You’ll only ever be able to love that movie.
lover of our Lord, words, and music as his writing tools
LOVES COOKIES, KNIVES, AND MUSIC!!!!November 26, 2018 at 11:41 pm #61715
“-moans- -is too busy recovering from being in pain to answer-” In reality? It was AWESOME. (Except there was a little language and the fight scene with Inigo and the Count… yeah… that blood loss was unrealistic.)
I don’t have a 6 year old brother. I have a 7 year old brother. But he hasn’t seen it yet so we’re all good for now. -thumbs up-
"You can dance with my henchman."November 27, 2018 at 12:30 am #61742
I just figured out the personality things! entj is where I’m at I THINK…
lover of our Lord, words, and music as his writing tools
LOVES COOKIES, KNIVES, AND MUSIC!!!!
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