Any guys out there?

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    @ashira: Thanks! Hope its better then kari’s cuz *coughs* I would like to stay in command here XD

    INTJ- trying to grow into real wisdom; James 3:17


    @theinconceivable1 This was the best part…
    ““Drop…your…sword,” I commanded; each word dripped with authority.

    “You should’ve seen me when I was literally hanging upside down off the couch drawing.””
    I thought that was part of the story and that is hilarious. XD

    “Truly you have a dizzying intellect.” Thank you.
    My worse nightmare isn’t drowning. Normally in my dreams if I’m underwater I can breathe just fine. Like the first dive into the pool when you think you could hold your breathe forever and swim slowly around like you’re flying(or a siren).
    I nearly drowned once though(that I can remember…). But I don’t think I’ve had any drowning dreams. I think that night I had a dream that I had to get out of the pool because it was getting dark… And an octopus and shark had entered the pool, they wanted to eat me so I had to get out of the water. But then the octopus crawled out of the pool and I think I dream jumped, cause that’s the last thing I remember…

    When your wings are weak and you feel like you can't fly any farther you're halfway there!


    @catwing: ““Truly you have a dizzying intellect.” Thank you.” darn… you missed the return quote which is: “Wait till I get going! where was I?’ XD O well…

    “This was the best part…
    ““Drop…your…sword,” I commanded; each word dripped with authority.” Thanks : D!

    “My worse nightmare isn’t drowning. Normally in my dreams if I’m underwater I can breathe just fine. Like the first dive into the pool when you think you could hold your breathe forever and swim slowly around like you’re flying(or a siren).” its at about this point that I remember I hate hearing peoples dreams XD. Thanks but I’ll think I’ll pass…

    hum, well if its not drownding how about being locked int the dark basement? IDK…

    INTJ- trying to grow into real wisdom; James 3:17


    @serenity: “I’m going to be seventeen on Dec 5th, but don’t say so on the ‘any guys out there?’ thread yet. they’re still guessing. “HA!!! I cant belive i found this XD it was so random, I just looked at the most recent thread and then went back a page to find this right there! Wow, your only 17! Wow… I was way off XD Its just you had such a good understanding of Calvinism and stuff… Huh, well in the words of Inigo “a [woman] who can do that can plan my castle assault any day.” XD

    INTJ- trying to grow into real wisdom; James 3:17

    Veraza Winterknight


    Well, I did hang upside down off the couch drawing. XD Just 2 days ago actually. Now all my relatives think I’m crazy. (Which is true. I am crazy.)


    My worst nightmare is neither drowning nor being locked in a dark basement. (Although it might depend on what was in the basement.) -grins bc you’ll never guess-

    I suppose it’s actually not that difficult to imagine now that I think about it.

    -mutters- so the power’s gotten to me huh? That’s what you think. -normal voice- Alright. It. Is. On.

    Also, the reason I said you couldn’t beat me, well, it’s because there’s something I’ve never told you. I guess I probably should’ve, but oh well. I have powers. Magic is literally in my blood. (Don’t ask me how that works because I haven’t completely figured it out yet.) And one of my powers is the ability to create portals and travel to other dimensions. (That’s just one among many.) And it works both ways so I could bring stuff back too, like the several dozen armies I’ve made friends with. Or the creatures that I’ve made friends with. And I can do other stuff too. Like I’d just put you in a shield sphere, and then you’d just stand there. In the air. Unable to do anything. However I don’t normally use my powers except as a last resort because of… reasons. So, we’ll just have to see if I can defeat you without them first. After I finish this other thing I’m doing. I will write the fight later. Eventually. When I finish the thing on Parthonia.

    And. One question. Who’s going to judge?

    A Kitchen Sink


    That doc is great. XD

    Yeah, sadly we aren’t doing that well. ;-; We’re like 4-6. But it’s not really a surprise at this point.

    What’s your favorite thing about NZ?

    "If you called out to the void loud enough... hard enough... would the void answer back?"


    @serenity @theinconceivable1

    If God has chosen some people for heaven and some people for hell before the creation of the world, why did Jesus come to earth and die?

    I’m not trying to start a debate or argument, I would just like to hear your thoughts. Honest.

    Anybody else who has an opinion can answer too.

    "Who knows what the next month will bring? I say let us eat cake now!"
    -Mr. Benedict



    you blew it! I can’t  believe you!

    *crosses arms grumpily* I was going to tell you guys today, but you had to go and blow it.

    *sighs* oh well. I never was any good at surprises anyway.

    and thanks for the compliment (I think it was a complement? IDK i’m bad with that sort of thing) I love theology, and discussing it is seriously one of my favorite pastimes. There are few better ways to grow up into Christ than work on understanding his body!

      – don’t worry about it! I would be honored to share my thoughts with you, and I don’t have any hard feelings about any disagreements here. (= I haven’t gotten to your other post yet because I didn’t have the time…. I will address each of them here in a moment. (=

    • This reply was modified 3 years, 5 months ago by Serenity.

    lover of our Lord, words, and music as his writing tools


    so, in answer to the question of why Jesus came to die if those who were going to be saved and damned were set apart from the creation of the world, I would say that just because they were selected doesn’t mean that they were saved.

    For a person to be saved, their sins must be atoned for, either by their not sinning (not possible with humans) or for their sins to be paid for with blood. Under the old covenant, sins were overlooked by God (not forgiven – correct me if i’m wrong) by the sacrifices of bulls and goats and birds and such. But “it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins” says Hebrews 11 4, and so we wait for the coming of the sacrifice once for all, who is Christ. Christ’s blood covers all the sins of those who he saves for ALL eternity. Those sins are paid for, forgiven, taken care of, reconciled, whatever you want to say there. They are no longer an issue. Christ paid for them by dying after living a COMPLETELY sinless life. He is the only person who ever could or will do that because HE IS GOD.

    So, why did Jesus still have to come if our salvation/damnation is predestined? He still had to pay for the sins.

    That clear, @ori-art? does that address your issue?

    , do you agree? anything I missed?

    lover of our Lord, words, and music as his writing tools

    E. Grace


    …how about being locked int the dark basement? IDK…



    Dude.  That’s my life.


    Anyways…  🙂 I think I’m ready to continue our debate now.  I think.  Hopefully.  We’ll see.  😉

    In any case, let me get started… 🙂

    As for Hebrews I do agree it was a warning and that Paul was “convinced of better things in [their] case” but that, in now way, makes the warning nullified! I would equate this to me saying “Emgc if you drugs bad things will happen to you. But don’t worry, I’m convinced you won’t do drugs” That does not, in any way, rule out the possibility of you doing drugs. (+, might I add, you don’t warn someone about something that can’t happen…”

    Okay, so I don’t think I made myself very clear on this point on what exactly I meant.  So let me try again, and please tell me if it makes sense.  What I believe is that this may be a warning against wandering away from Christ, NOT falling away.  To encourage us to stay completely strong in our faith, not faltering due to dangers in the world that may entice us to turn away from Jesus.  NOT saying that our faith can possibly fail.

    And if not that, then I probably would agree with @selah-chelyah that it really might not have been talking about true believers in the first place.  To be perfectly honest, I’m not sure.  But I cannot possibly believe that this verse refers to someone being able to lose their salvation because it goes in direct contradiction to all of these passages, and more: John 10:28, John 6:39-40, John 6:37, Hebrews 7:25, John 18:9, John 17:2, John 5:24, John 3:15-16, Isaiah 54:17, 1 John 5:13-20, Ephesians 4:30 etc;  I’ll stop now, but there’s many, many more.

    And I realize that many things in the Bible appear to be contradictions to our faulty human understandings, but that doesn’t make this one of them.  So please, explain to me why these verses DON’T mean that all true believers shall have eternal life.  ‘Cause I really just don’t understand.

    As for where do I find my assurance? From the fact that I can’t lose my salvation XD (ah, I love illogical logic…)

    Okay, but that didn’t really answer my question.  What’s the reason behind your ‘illogical logic’?  Am I missing something?

    As far as the romans one, I totally agree, it’s talking about the Jews and Gentiles as a whole but, I would argue, it’s also talking about the individual “Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. ” Romans 11: 20-22 NASB if this is only talking about the group then if your a Jew you can’t be saved because you’ve been “broken off”. And I’m sure you agree Jews “also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.”

    Okay, can I please do the lazy thing here and refer you to an article?  XD Here is an article that explains why I don’t believe this passage is talking about individual salvation.  It can explain my reasons better.  Hope you don’t mind. 🙂

    This verse is more shaky but I’m going to try and defend it. Right, this is talking about false teachers but that doesn’t mean they weren’t saved. Consider this verse “…even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.” 2 Peter 2: 1b how do you deny what you don’t know and, more then that, why does it say “the Master who bought them” if they weren’t christians? That doesn’t make much sense to me.

    Okay, so I think this is where it comes down to whether you take the Calvinist or Armenian point of view.  (Which, just to clarify, I’m not claiming to be either at this point.  That’s another discussion…)  But, in either case, I believe that Christ died for ALL. He paid the price for ALL of us– believer and non-believer alike.  (Romans 5:8, Jn. 1:29; 1 Jn. 2:2; 2 Cor. 5:19; 1 Tim. 4:10; Heb. 2:9; Titus 2:11,etc.)  So they were “bought” by Christ, but they were never truly Christians.  Christ died for them, but they never really had saving faith.  Make sense?

    Okay, I think I addressed everything… *takes deep breath*   Okay, so there you go.  Hope everything I said made sense.  Now, tell me your thoughts!



    Yeah, I suppose it might not necessarily be just a writer thing, but it’s certainly not necessarily a girl thing.  You should meet my brother. XD



    I just want to say that I really appreciate you sharing your beliefs with us.  I definitely don’t agree, but I can understand more now why you believe what you do, and it was really helpful for me. 🙂   I would really like to answer the questions you had, but I’m afraid I have to go, so I’ll leave it to Selah.

    Anyways, just wanted to say that real quick.  God bless!

    "True humility is not thinking less of yourself; it is thinking of yourself less." - C. S. Lewis


    @kari-karast: “And I can do other stuff too. Like I’d just put you in a shield sphere, and then you’d just stand there. In the air. Unable to do anything.” “Well, the [inconceivables]’s have never taken defeat easily .” XD

    “One question. Who’s going to judge?” everyone! we’ll do a voting thing where everyone says who they think wrote the better piece!

    “I will write the fight later. Eventually. ”

    *waves* “Have fun storming the castle!” *whispers* “Think it will work?” “It will take a miracle.”

    : “What’s your favorite thing about NZ?” It’s “Not that bad. Well I’m not saying I would like to build a summer home here but the trees are actually quite lovely.” XD (Oh how I loves these quotes!) Um, the climate is great! people are really nice… IDK… I would say the climate Oh! and the camps! those are cool too!

    What state do you live in?

    : I think sereity put it well here “So, why did Jesus still have to come if our salvation/damnation is predestined? He still had to pay for the sins.” but remember I have illogical logic (Oh the kragle!)  and also believe Jesus died so he could give everyone a chance to be saved. (Illogical logic can get complicated! XD)

    : Hey so you said “sins were overlooked by God (not forgiven – correct me if i’m wrong)” and I dont think that can be right. If God can just overlook sins then there is no need for Jesus, he can just overlook the sins of those he’s chosen. Besides, that means God can tolerate sin which causes alot of problems the way I see it…

    INTJ- trying to grow into real wisdom; James 3:17



    All the “you”s in this are hypothetical yous. If anyone reading this is convicted, that’s the Holy Spirit working, not me. I don’t mean to condemn or accuse anyone hear.

    “I agree that a dead man can do nothing, and that all people are born into sin. Yes, God does have every right to condmn every single person to eternal death. So why didn’t He? I believe it’s because He loves us. But, with your argument, that would have to mean He doesn’t love some people. And somehow I don’t see that in the character of God. Do you believe that every person was made in the image of God…or just His chosen?”

    Yes, God loves those he has saved. Yes, he loves us even as his creations. But no, I don’t believe he loves everyone and wants to save everyone. For that to be the case, one of two things would have to happen: either we wouldn’t have the free will to sin, and so we would be sinless beings like the angels, not needing salvation because we never sinned, OR God is too weak to see his will through. “I totally agree not all people will believe…all I have to do is look around.” Well, if your scenario of God loving everyone were true, then this statement would lead to the conclusion that God is too weak to do anything and WE have power over him. I don’t believe that. (this isn’t an attack on you at all – I merely am pointing out the logical conclusion of that specific scenario – don’t be mad at me (= )

    “Can we know if we are God’s elect?”

    Yes. That would be the Holy Spirit producing the fruit of the Gospel in our lives. If we truly are saved and have repented and believe the sacrifice of Christ to be the salvation of our souls through the grace of God and the working of the Spirit, we or people around us will start to see the difference he makes in our lives. If we are truly saved, it should turn our self-focused world upside-down as we learn to love and serve our brothers and sisters in Christ and as we tell the story of what changed our lives to those around us. That is the Spirit working saving faith in us and growing us more and more into the image of the Son of God. Isnt that a crazy concept?!?

    “I totally agree not all people will believe…all I have to do is look around. “I believe that when in John 3 16 salvation is extended to the world, I believe that it is extended to all kinds of men, not every man. And that, though it may seem sad, is just” Not sure how that is just. It’s definitely not fair for every person to not have a chance at life. And isn’t fairness part of justice?”

    Justice by what standard? If God makes the rules, God knows the rules, and God enforces the rules, what can we say about them? He created us and the rules, and he created us to NOT know everything. If we knew everything, we would be God, and that doesn’t bring him any glory!

    So, no, fairness would not be a part of justice the way you’re looking at it. But from God’s perspective, absolutely! It isn’t fair that some people are saved! That is absolutely outside of justice. Justice is getting what you deserve, and salvation isn’t it. What we deserve is death. So God giving salvation to some is gracious of him! Not unfair that he didn’t give it to all! Sin still must be punished, and if Christs perfect blood didn’t atone for it then ours will by spending the rest of eternity separate from him.

    In Job 40:2, God asks Job: “will a faultfinder contend with the Almighty? Let him who reproves God answer it.” We don’t know everything. We can’t. That’s God’s job. We only get to trust and obey.

    ““It isn’t enough to acknowledge the conquering King’s legitimacy after you’ve been conquered if you want to live; you must serve him while you have the choice.” I agree. But we have the choice. The chance to choose Him before we are forced too.”

    No. And Yes. We may choose to serve him in our actions in this life. That is where free will comes in to play. But we do not have power over God to have a say in our salvation. The Spirit helps us to serve God when he is given to us. We are given the grace to repent and believe, and from there the Spirit contiinues to impart grace upon grace to us to help us in our daily walk. Yes, we can choose whether we want to say something hurtful or something kind to a friend or family member, but we do not control whether we are given the grace that is required for us to repent and believe in the first place! It’s a circular thing, but we are given grace to do harder things that we need more grace for.

    Grace is the point here, not justice. Justice, and fairness, would be all people dying. Mercy would be for all people to simply not die. And grace is not only that we don’t die, we get to LIVE and REIGN with Christ ON HIGH because he made it possible!

    “You say if God wants us He’ll save us…if that’s true then why do we need to choose to serve Him?”

    Because we love him, and he told us to. And technically speaking, I suppose you wouldn’t have to serve him if you were an elect but didn’t choose to serve him, but at that point you would be witnessed to and saved! Being one of God’s elect doesn’t mean that you’re automatically saved – it just means that God has chosen to save you – in his ways and his time.

    If you don’t love him and WANT to serve him, chances are you are either in a slump in the Christian life (that does happen – we get discouraged pretty easily) or you aren’t saved. Whether you will be later in your life or not, that’s God’s business. Not mine.

    ““No one who is offered salvation turns it down, and no one who is not offered salvation may obtain it.” This is what gets at me. I believe everyon is offered salvation. Can you tell if someone has been offered salvation?”

    Yes. They will be saved. In the moment, maybe not, but God works his will out in his purpose to his glory! If they are an elect of God, they will be saved. Period. Now, later, earlier, whatever. God works out his plans to his glory. His will cannot be thwarted.

    “Do you witness to people? But if you did wouldn’t it be pointless, because they don’t have the choice of accepting or rejecting what you present-the Gospel. So maybe you don’t, since their destiny is already decided.”

    Yes, I witness. Technically, yes, its pointless. But as you mentioned, we are called to do it.
    And by the way, what you preach and witness with shouldn’t be “god loves you” or “you can be saved”. We simply can’t know that. The message that we are to preach is repent and believe. They can’t do that without the Spirit, and that is what we can influence. That’s what we’re told to do, so we do it.

    “Yet Christ commanded His disciples to make disciples of all people. So did the disciples know which ones were chosen and which were not?

    Probably not, no.

    “Also, do you believe we can know if we are saved (or one of God’s chosen)? If not, we have no hope to offer. We cannot give what we don’t have.”

    Youre right. We can’t give what we don’t have. We can offer what we do have, and only those who God has predestined to save will accept what we offer. We offer life.
    The world knows that its dying. People are afraid of death and always have been. What we have to offer is their life. Christ paid for their lives, if they are of the elect, and we can be the one to tell them how and who and what! God may sovereignly choose to work through us, and that is a greater honor than any I know of.

    ““It bothers me when people say you should ‘choose Jesus’, because that really challenges the entire sovereignty of God. If we, the created, can make a choice about our eternal status, then it removes God from the picture almost entirely. in that scenario, He offers the salvation, but he has no power over us or it; we have power over God.” I disagree. In His sovereignty, He knows what we will choose – but we still have to choose. His desire is for all men to call on Him for salvation, but in His sovereignty He knows not all men will. He has all power, but He does not force us to accept what He offers. I don’t think it removes God from the picture at all. He calls different people in different ways.”

    Yes! We choose, in a manner of speaking, when it is offered to us. But it isn’t offered to everyone, and those who it is offered to accept it! I don’t think he “forces” us to accept it either. But what we are offered is so great, so beyond anything we could even dream of accomplishing ourselves, that we do receive when offered.

    “Some are raised by Christians, some have a divine revelation, some look around them and see the evidence of God in nature…and so forth and so on.

    I think that’s not quite right. I don’t mean to botch what youre sayiing by splitting paragraphs up like this, but it needs to be addressed.

    The only way that men can be saved is through the Word of God. Divine revelation… I don’t know about that, but both being raised by Christians and seeing the creation are only one step. Parents are sinful, and the creation is fallen, and though they can point us to God, they cannot give us salvation. Only God can do that through his word. Whether the first time you hear the word is reading it, or hearing a sermon, or hearing a friend share their story, the Word is the only thing that can save. (there are verses that say this, but I can’t find any right now – on a time crunch)

    “But in these cases, and any other, they must choose. I came to the place where I realized I could not be saved by my parents faith, by my lifestyle, by what I did or did not do. I chose to accept the forgiveness of God that has been offered to me through the blood of Jesus Christ. And if offered to me, why not every man? I cannot claim to be any more worthy of His sacrifice than any other person. I am not. As Paul said in 1 Timothy 1:15…I am chief among sinners. In Romans 6:10 it says He died once for all…do you also interpret this ‘all’ as ‘all kinds’ and not ‘all men’?

    Youre right there. It doesn’t have to do with worthiness. It has to do with grace. If my grandma gives my brother a new skateboard and not me, it doesn’t mean that he is more worthy than I am to have a new skeatboard (necessarily – this is a faulty illustration for a few reasons), but that she wanted to give him a skateboard and didn’t want to give me one. That doesn’t say anything about him or me, but only about my grandma.

    Now, my grnadma is obviously sinful, and maybe she does think that he’s worthier than I am. But that doesnt really have much to do with God. He makes the choices, and we are not one to argue with them.

    “That is not something I believe, and truly it offends me when people say that. It is an insult to God that we put ourselves in power over him. and that is exactly what we do when we claim that we had a hand in our salvation.

    We take credit for God’s redeeming power in our lives.” Anybody who is truly seeking would not presume to have power over God. You’re right…only God can work transforming, redeeming power in our lives. Choosing to follow Him is not assuming to take credit for salvation. If Christ had never come to this sinful earth we would be lost with no reconciliation to God. But He did come, offering that reconciliation which we (mankind) do not deserve. “God is jealous of His glory. He will not stand to have it stolen. He will have his glory, whether we intend to glorify him or not. He is the author here, not us. We do not write our own stories. We do have free will, and we do make our own choices about many things, but God’s will cannot be thwarted. We cannot take power into our own hands.” I agree. We do not ‘write’ our stories…but we make choices in them.”

    Sort of. In Christ, we can choose to sin or not to sin, or how to strive after him, but we don’t choose whether we are saved or not, or whether we ought to be saved or not. That is God’s prerogative. He created, He made the rules, we broke them, so he gets to enforce them. That’s not something we can argue with.

    “Have you ever read the book “Just Do Something” by Kevin DeYoung? If not, you should…every Christian seeking to do the will of God should. He talks about the will of God…His will of decree, what He has ordained – it will happen, it is what is; 2ndly, His will of desire, what He desires from us, and how things should be; 3rdly, His will of direction, what He directs us to do. I don’t claim to fully understand God’s will(s), but this book has helped. Quote: “I am simply noting that God is sovereign, but He is not the author of sin. We are under His sovereignty, but we are not free from responsibility for our actions.” End quote. When you say His will cannot be thwarted, I assume you mean His will of decree…I agree. So, do you believe salvation is a gift? If yes, than it is a free offer, and the price has already been paid. When one of your family or friends gives you a gift, you make the choice to take it or reject it. So it is with the greatest gift of all – salvation. If it is not a gift, then we have to earn it. We, in our fallenness, have to try and strive for something that we can never get on our own. We have to surrender to the power of God, accept His gift (He paid for it), and live according to His word. Don’t you want to give good things to the people you love? And you were made in the image of God, so how much greater is God’s desire to give good things to the people He loves. Does He love every person He has ever created? I believe so. If He does, then He wants to give them good things. The greatest thing of all? Salvation.”

    I havent read the book. I may look into that, thanks! (=

    Yes, salvation is a gift. Do you refuse a gift? I mean, really. Do you shove it back in their faces, thumb your nose, and tell them how much you don’t want/need it? I don’t! And this is EXACTLY, I mean exactly, what we do when (if) we refuse salvation. It is a gift. It is a gift to be accepted.

    I agree. NO, we don’t earn it! We can’t! That’s where many of the pagan religions in the world go wrong – they try to earn their life. They can’t, and neither can anyone else.

    “If He really cares about every person, and I believe He does, then He will not withhold the gift of salvation from them. He has offered it. Paid dearly for it. We can accept it from His generous hands with humility and thankfulness, or we can reject it in self-centeredness and denial.”

    Every person is predestined to one of two eternities: either they are one of God’s elect and they will be saved and taken up into his presence, or they are not saved and will pay the price for their sins. The statement “if he really cares” is problematic to me; if by cares you mean is concerned for their salvation, then no, I would say that he doesn’t care about everyone. If you mean cares by making sure they get what he has planned for them, which I’m pretty sure you don’t mean, then I would agree. Some will be condemned to hell for their sins, and others will be forgiven their sins and be with God forever. But if by cares you mean that God loves everyone and wants everyone to be happy and with him forever, then I would disagree. God isn’t looking to save every man. If he were, there would be no glory in it. We can see in unbelievers how far He has brought us. We can give God all the glory for that, if we believe that he truly is the only one to give credit to for it.

    I do not believe that those who are offered salvation will deny it – whether they can, I would have to say that they cannot. There can be no rejection of God if he truly is seeking you out. He has power over every character in His Story, and they will listen to him.

    And like you said, it is the greatest gift ever. Who would refuse that?

    Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts with me, @ori-art. I am so grateful.

    May this discussion and all others be to God’s glory!

    lover of our Lord, words, and music as his writing tools


    @theinconceivable1 – 3,047

    beat that!

    lover of our Lord, words, and music as his writing tools


    @theinconceivable1 –  thanks for the heads up… maybe the term paid is better than overlooked, but I do think that those sacrifices were not permanent payment – only the down payment…. that’s a bad term, let me think… another bad term, but the tide-me-over…

    why did I become a writer again?

    lover of our Lord, words, and music as his writing tools


    and I didn’t mean that he tolerated sin, I was just trying to say that it was temporarily taken care of, since the animals’ blood didn’t really atone for the sins of the people.

    does that make more sense?

    lover of our Lord, words, and music as his writing tools

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