November 22, 2018 at 5:42 pm #61036
@eden-anderson I understand! Have a marvelous holiday! 😀
Assistant Guildmaster of the Awesome Meraki
~ Created to create ~November 22, 2018 at 5:59 pm #61039ori-art@ori-art
I agree that a dead man can do nothing, and that all people are born into sin. Yes, God does have every right to condmn every single person to eternal death. So why didn’t He? I believe it’s because He loves us. But, with your argument, that would have to mean He doesn’t love some people. And somehow I don’t see that in the character of God. Do you believe that every person was made in the image of God…or just His chosen?
Can we know if we are God’s elect?
I totally agree not all people will believe…all I have to do is look around.
“I believe that when in John 3 16 salvation is extended to the world, I believe that it is extended to all kinds of men, not every man. And that, though it may seem sad, is just” Not sure how that is just. It’s definitely not fair for every person to not have a chance at life. And isn’t fairness part of justice?
“It isn’t enough to acknowledge the conquering King’s legitimacy after you’ve been conquered if you want to live; you must serve him while you have the choice.” I agree. But we have the choice. The chance to choose Him before we are forced too. You say if God wants us He’ll save us…if that’s true then why do we need to choose to serve Him?
“No one who is offered salvation turns it down, and no one who is not offered salvation may obtain it.” This is what gets at me. I believe everyon is offered salvation. Can you tell if someone has been offered salvation? Do you witness to people? But if you did wouldn’t it be pointless, because they don’t have the choice of accepting or rejecting what you present-the Gospel. So maybe you don’t, since their destiny is already decided. Yet Christ commanded His disciples to make disciples of all people. So did the disciples know which ones were chosen and which were not? Also, do you believe we can know if we are saved (or one of God’s chosen)? If not, we have no hope to offer. We cannot give what we don’t have.
“It bothers me when people say you should ‘choose Jesus’, because that really challenges the entire sovereignty of God. If we, the created, can make a choice about our eternal status, then it removes God from the picture almost entirely. in that scenario, He offers the salvation, but he has no power over us or it; we have power over God.” I disagree. In His sovreignty, He knows what we will choose – but we still have to choose. His desire is for all men to call on Him for salvation, but in His sovreignty He knoes not all men will. He has all power, but He does not force us to accept what He offers. I don’t think it removes God from the picture at all. He calls different people in different ways. Some are raised by Christians, some have a divine revelation, some look around them and see the evidence of God in nature…and so forth and so on. But in these cases, and any other, they must choose. I came to the place where I realized I could not be saved by my parents faith, by my lifestyle, by what I did or did not do. I chose to accept the forgiveness of God that has been offered to me through the blood of Jesus Christ. And if offered to me, why not every man? I cannot claim to be any more worthy of His sacrifice than any other person. I am not. As Paul said in 1 Timothy 1:15…I am chief among sinners. In Romans 6:10 it says He died once for all…do you also interpret this ‘all’ as ‘all kinds’ and not ‘all men’?
“That is not something I believe, and truly it offends me when people say that. It is an insult to God that we put ourselves in power over him. and that is exactly what we do when we claim that we had a hand in our salvation. We take credit for God’s redeeming power in our lives.” Anybody who is truly seeking would not presume to have power over God. You’re right…only God can work transforming, redeeming power in our lives. Choosing to follow Him is not assuming to take credit for salvation. If Christ had never come to this sinful earth we would be lost with no reconciliation to God. But He did come, offering that reconciliation which we (mankind) do not deserve.
“God is jealous of His glory. He will not stand to have it stolen. He will have his glory, whether we intend to glorify him or not. He is the author here, not us. We do not write our own stories. We do have free will, and we do make our own choices about many things, but God’s will cannot be thwarted. We cannot take power into our own hands.” I agree. We do not ‘write’ our stories…but we make choices in them. Have you ever read the book “Just Do Something” by Kevin DeYoung? If not, you should…every Christian seeking to do the will of God should. He talks about the will of God…His will of decree, what He has ordained – it will happen, it is what is; 2ndly, His will of desire, what He desires from us, and how things should be; 3rdly, His will of direction, what He directs us to do. I don’t claim to fully understand God’s will(s), but this book has helped. Quote: “I am simply noting that God is sovreign, but He is not the author of sin. We are under His sovreignty, but we are not free from responsibility for our actions.” End quote. When you say His will cannot be thrawted, I asaume you mean His will of decree…I agree.
So, do you belive salvation is a gift? If yes, than it is a free offer, and the price has already been paid. When one of your family or friends gives you a gift, you make the choice to take it or reject it. So it is with the greatest gift of all – salvation. If it is not a gift, then we have to earn it. We, in our falleness, have to try and strive for something that we can never get on our own. We have to surrender to the power of God, accept His gift (He paid for it), and live according to His word. Don’t you want to give good things to the people you love? And you were made in the image of God, so how much greater is God’s desire to give good things to the people He loves. Does He love every person He has ever created? I believe so. If He does, then He wants to give them good things. The greatest thing of all? Salvation. If He really cares about every person, and I believe He does, then He will not withhold the gift of salvation from them. He has offered it. Paid dearly for it. We can accept it from His generous hands with humility and thankfulness, or we can reject it in self-centerdness and denial.
This is where I stand. But I do acknowledge my ability to fail and be wrong. God is still making me into who I should be. And until I reach Heaven I cannot claim to be infallible. May we allow Him to mold us into His likeness. God bless. Have a happy Thanksgiving!
"Who knows what the next month will bring? I say let us eat cake now!"
-Mr. BenedictNovember 22, 2018 at 11:45 pm #61057
Yes… Your blog is a dead end. That is a validated fact…
That’s is very interesting. Glad you’re figuring out what you want to do. 😀
@emgc Yikes… I’m sorry… *throws you chocolate and hopes you aren’t allergic to that too* *hides inside the box she was previously sitting on* I’m so sorry… (I am not actually this sad. Don’t worry. 😛 )
@dekreel ! CHASM BEASTIE! KaPeeFer friend! Come back! I will not call you a wolf! Where have you been?
@selah-chelyah Well, mine doesn’t have any ghosts in it.
Happy Thanksgiving everyone!
When your wings are weak and you feel like you can't fly any farther you're halfway there!November 23, 2018 at 4:33 am #61059November 23, 2018 at 12:29 pm #61073ori-art@ori-art
Do you argue for the sake of arguing? Maybe I should have used the word debate. So if you really believe serenity’s position is Biblically grounded, then why don’t you believe it? Just because you argued against it and felt like you ‘lost’ doesn’t mean you were wrong…but then I have no idea how you argued or how you actually felt about what you were arguing for. But I think it definitely helps to believe what your debating or arguing for.
Well, I’ll share what I can. I don’t know exactly how everything happened cuz it was very gradual and several years ago. It wasn’t like, boom, now I’m not afraid anymore…though that would’ve been nice. As I acknowledged my weakness and continued asking Him for His strength, Scripture verses would come to mind. Promises that He made to His children. Some of the verses that often helped me are Psalm 18: 1-2 and Joshua 1:9. Also, I found praying for other people helped. Eventually I’d fall asleep. I can’t exactly say when it stopped. I know it’s not very specific but I hope this helps. Overcoming fears is a process, but through the power of God in us, we CAN overcome. Don’t let him stop fighting. God bless!
"Who knows what the next month will bring? I say let us eat cake now!"
-Mr. BenedictNovember 23, 2018 at 4:09 pm #61106
@dekreel It’s been a while…
Yes, visit. 😀
(Though I understand being busy. 😉 )
When your wings are weak and you feel like you can't fly any farther you're halfway there!November 23, 2018 at 7:05 pm #61116November 23, 2018 at 9:55 pm #61168
@selah-chelyah I see. That makes sense. 😛
When your wings are weak and you feel like you can't fly any farther you're halfway there!November 23, 2018 at 10:40 pm #61174November 24, 2018 at 12:57 am #61190
@kari-karst: “Does that mean the sword/bow drawing s done?” *blinks* hehe, oh ya… *instead of responding to everyone goes and sits down to draw. Spends at least an hour trying to draw this really cool battle scene he can see in his head. Utterly fails. Remembers why he’s not an artist and just sketches the blade* O well, not as cool as I imagined it looking but here’s the general idea…
(add picture here)
“Oh you’re not emotionless? -pumps fist in air- ” *glares at you with his fiery eye.* No hugs. “Like that time I was fangirling before choir. I think I freaked out/slightly scared several people.” how do you fangirl a choir XD? Also, that is like the last thing you would ever find me doing XD But hey, *shrugs* if that’s what you like to do! “Or so that there aren’t any writing ranks anymore. Or something like that.” *face palms*
@hgm_barnes18“Oh, I forgot you live in NZ! I still think that’s so cool. Do you have an epic accent, then?” actually I’m from colorado! I’ve just been over here for the last 2 or so years… But, ya, it is pretty cool : D
@catwing“I am confused… wife fiery eye? That is one typo I can’t seem to decipher” XD I meant to say ‘wide’. “That is a long post. I see why it took you so long. It’s as long as a chapter in some books.” I know right! I need to spend less time on here XD.
@the-fledgling-artist “(It’s cool that you’re a writer instead! Are you the only writer in your family?)” yep! The only problem with that is both my siblings refuse to reading my writing… the only time my bro (the one that drew the helmet) has read some of my short stories is when I bribed him with my participation in a game that could not be played without me (hehe, desperate times call for desperate measures XD) but I don’t think they want to come on story members…
@emgc“You had a lot of excellent thoughts and I can tell you’ve already studied this topic quite a bit. Now I have a lot to think about…” ya you too! Look forward to reading your response : D
@dekreel:wait, first, how do you have two guild badges!!! And second “Hiiii. . . *walks back out*” why? XD
@serenity: “Are you an Arminian?” : D, not quite… (it’s illogical logic, I explained it earlier XD) anyway, ya here is good for me and I would love to talk (and you can respond at what ever pace you want : D) “I am not 23. and the kids in the pictures aren’t mine” darn! *kicks the dirt* uh how about 19 then? “I haven’t watched that video yet… I will soon though. I’m definitely interested there. (= *scrolls through calendar looking for an hour opening* maybe… Wednesday? *looks up sheepishly*” cool! Thanks for taking the time : D “nope, not 19 either” oh darn, not 19 huh… how about 20 (I do realise I’m breaking the stereotypical rule about guessing a girls age (aka always guess younger XD) but I hate being stereotypical so I’m taking the risk!”
@selah-chelah: “INTJ life exposed… they DO have emotions!” *crosses his arms* I refuse to admit this fact… XD
“So I will post replies in bits and pieces. I will go one by one with your Scriptures, Prince Inc” Hey no worries! Alright, well let’s get into this!
Ok, I agree ‘enlightened’ could (keyword there) refer to simply the intellectual knowledge of christ, even if it does I don’t think I have a problem with this.
However I do have a problem with your (well the commentators) second point. He said Christ’s “”tasting of death” was obviously momentary and not continuing or permanent. All men experience the goodness of God, but that does not mean they are saved.” and I have a problem with this. Now here, as far as I can tell, he takes a bit of a logical leap here by seeming to say the goodness of God is the ‘heavenly gift’ this passage is speaking of which is not necessarily (though it could be). So first I think I need some proof that God’s general goodness to mankind is all this passage is speaking of when it says ‘heavenly gift’. Second I think it’s important to note that, just because an experience may be temporary, it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. To use his own reference Christ was only momentarily dead but that does not mean He did not die. A person may have only been momentarily saved but that does not mean they did not believe. Hey you know what this makes me think of? That parable about seeds in dirt and stuff. Let me find it:
(it’s in Matthew 13: 3. I think this hebrews verse is describing a ‘type 2 christian and I’m not sure who’s point it helps XD Anyway, I was going to add it but I realised it would be distracting and probably not help my cause… so ya, you can check it out if you want! Sorry for the side track!) anyway, your comontary guy said “Whether the gift refers to Christ (See John 6:51; 2nd Corinthians 9:15) or to the Holy Spirit (See Acts 2:38; 1st Peter 1:12), experiencing either one was not the equivalent of salvation (See John 16:8; Acts 7:51).” Now, the way I see it, this debunks the earlier ‘ the heavenly gift is the general goodness of God’ thing so really he’s claiming “Men can experience Christ/the Holy Spirit” and that does not mean their saved” which is true, depending on the type of experience (and what you believe about certain other subjects *coughs* calvinism) So my problem isn’t with the point, just how it was portrayed : D. So to sum up what our commentator has said so far:
“It’s possible to have intellectual knowledge of the word and an experience of God and not be saved.”
Ok, this is where he loses me: “Even though the concept of partaking is used in 3:1, 3:14, and 12:8 of a relationship that believers have, the context must be the final determining factor. This context 6:4-6 seems to prelude a reference to true believers. It could be a reference to their participation, as noted above, in the miraculous ministry of Jesus, who was empowered by the Spirit (See Luke 4:14, 18), or in the convincing ministry of the Holy Spirit, which obviously can be resisted without experiencing salvation.” first, he even starts off by saying “in the other passages of hebrews, ya, partaking in the Holy Spirit is referring to the relationship believers have with God…” And at this point I’m nodding and thinking back to Ephesians 1: 13 which says (NASB) “In [q]Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also [r]believed, you were sealed in
Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, ” Guys, the Holy spirit is the seal of being a real christian. But then this guys like “however we must let the context be the determining factor.” so going off of his two, previously established maybes, he concludes this verse is talking about “the miraculous ministry of Jesus, who was empowered by the Spirit (See Luke 4:14, 18), or in the convincing ministry of the Holy Spirit” and that when the verse says ‘shared in the Holy Spirit’ it means ‘shared in the Holy Spirit’s ministry’. Now, hopefully I’m not being too harsh here, but lets use his own words and let “the context must be the final determining factor” In other parts of Hebrews, as he said, sharing in the Holy Spirit is talking about, well, sharing in the actual Holy Spirit, not ‘sharing in the ministry of the spirit’. Moreover we can see that’s the same in other parts of scripture as well. So I guess my issue is, at least from my point of view, the context says ‘sharing in the Holy Spirit’ means being a legit and real christian and there’s little to suggest it refers to ‘sharing in the Holy Spirit’s ministry.’ Anyway, moving on!
I think I’m fine with the next point… (I feel like that’s dangerous, just agreeing XD)
Yep, i’ve got problems with this too! He says “his Greek term occurs only here in the NT. In the LXX (The Greek Septuagint), it was used to translate terms of severe unfaithfulness and apostasy (See Ezekiel 14:13; 18:24; 20:27). It is equivalent to the apostasy in Hebrews 3:12” so apparently ‘unfaithfulness’ defined as, well “Not faithfull” XD and ‘apostasy’ defined as “the abandonment or renunciation of a religious or political belief or principle.” so then he goes on to say “With full revelation they rejected the truth, concluding the opposite of the truth about Christ, and thus had no hope of being saved.” which then leads to. “here is no possibility of these verses referring to losing salvation. ” First, where did no possibility come from! Second, to say here that this ‘falling away’ is actually just a sort of unforgivable sin when you know everything there is to know about Christ and still reject Him and not a loss of salvation is crazy! I mean just look at this verse where falling away is mentioned “and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance” how do you ‘renew someone to repentance’ if they had never repented in the first place? Also, even just look at the two words he said this ‘falling away’ term could mean: “not faithful” (you have to have a task or job or whatever to be unfaithful. For instance I can’t be unfaithful to my wife if I was never married.) or “the abandonment or renunciation of a religious or political belief or principle.” you cannot abandon or renounce what you don’t believe in the first place. Anyway, I think I’ve made my point.
So ya, Allah, I’m sorry but your commentary guy hasn’t quite convinced me… if this is because of logical errors on my part (which quite possible, I only got 4 or so hours of sleep last night XD) then if you could show me where I went wrong that would be great! Anyway, if you decide that you want to still stick with this guys interpretation would you please tell me why so I can try and address anything I missed! As for my assurance, hehe, I actually already covered this whole thing with Egmc! Lets see if I can send a link… (this is my ‘out of the box’ position I was talking about.)
Anyway, thanks for talking and I hope you have a good time with your friends!
@ori-art: “Do you argue for the sake of arguing?” let’s hope not! (not saying I haven’t… It’s definitely been a thing for me as the past and I may find arguing fun but I dont think I’m arguing just for the sake of arguing right now. (can’t be sure of my intentions but I feel pretty good!) besides, when I do argue it’s always about stuff that matters, like biblical stuff that matters. I never argue about something I don’t care about! ) “Maybe I should have used the word debate.” XD ya that would be nice, it makes it sound less…mean spirited. “So if you really believe serenity’s position is Biblically grounded, then why don’t you believe it?” “let me explain. No, no, there is too much, let me sum up!” (I love that quote XD Though, might I say, I have explained my strange position before… I thought everyone did more stalking!) “Just because you argued against it and felt like you ‘lost’ doesn’t mean you were wrong…but then I have no idea how you argued or how you actually felt about what you were arguing for. But I think it definitely helps to believe what your debating or arguing for.” no… I definitely lost XD. Let me give you the story: So, at 15 I was your typical freshman who, though unknowingly, was a full fledged arminian. I meet this weird bible teacher who believed that we were both predestined and had free will and I was like “pfft! That’s not real!” and then, AND THEN, I meet romans 9 for the first time! That verse is like a tank! So after being like “but, but, but…” for a while I finally decided to admit predestination was real… However, while I claimed to believe both, I didn’t really because, common, they’re like direct contradictions of each other! So then I came to NZ and went to this bible camp where I argued like crazy against the bible teachers there and, hehe, they got really annoyed at me XD. But, they couldn’t give me a convincing argument against predestination! (and they were all Armenians) so then I VERY begrudgingly accepted the fact that God choose people to be saved and others doomed to hell… I wrote quite a few little papers during that time including one where, I concluded that God was evil because, common, it’s just logical! Here’s the link to my brain about a year ago (DISCLAIMER: I was pretty upset when I wrote this… All you Calvinists don’t get mad at me XD)
So ya, I was pretty passionate about this whole calvinism thing… and, long story short, because I was so sure Calvinism was true, I had literally no basis for believing God was good, and without that foundation, well, things went downhill. But then I met this guy, he’s a teacher at a bible school over here, and when I told him about my problems with God’s goodness. The first thing he did was not try and prove Calvinism is false (he was too smart for that XD) and the second thing he did was remind me that, guess what, I DON’T HAVE ALL THE INFORMATION. I’m a finite human being with inferior logic and so, If God says He’s good, even though He doesn’t seem good, like at all, He is. So I just had to trust God and when I started doing that instead of trusting my brain, then I was finally able to see beyond the logical inconsistencies that holding two directly opposite beliefs causes and trust that, if God says we have real freewill and we’re really predestined, we are! So ya, that’s where I stand! Thanks for listening!
Ok cool, ya not super helpful but thanks anyway!
And thats another massive email done! 2467 words XD (How i wish this counted for word wars XD)
INTJ- trying to grow into real wisdom; James 3:17November 24, 2018 at 1:08 am #61193
wait, first, how do you have two guild badges!!!
I’m in a writing guild as well as the art guild. Weird, huh? XD
Uhhhh, ’cause I’m not a guy. XD But I’m starting to get the impression that it’s OK for me to be here anyways. Ironic. . .November 24, 2018 at 1:40 am #61196
@theinconceivable1 You forgot to add the picture… It just says (add picture here)…
“I meant to say ‘wide’.” That makes sense. The ‘d’ is right next to the ‘f’. I didn’t think of that one…
“I need to spend less time on here.” found in yet another very long post of very many words… Maybe even longer than the first… 😀
@dekreel it was so he could meet other guys cause it’s mostly girls on here. But now that he’s meet some guys the topic has turned to other things and we can sneak on. ;P
When your wings are weak and you feel like you can't fly any farther you're halfway there!November 24, 2018 at 1:58 am #61197
@dekreel: “Uhhhh, ’cause I’m not a guy. XD But I’m starting to get the impression that it’s OK for me to be here anyways. Ironic. . .” *sighs and shakes his head* what has this thread come too… *looks up and stares at you* why are girls so random! (also glares at @catwing )
@catwing: “You forgot to add the picture… It just says (add picture here)…
“hehe, oh ya XD
INTJ- trying to grow into real wisdom; James 3:17November 24, 2018 at 2:10 am #61200November 24, 2018 at 2:45 am #61208
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