November 20, 2018 at 10:48 pm #60720
Well, I’m glad the chemistry didn’t damage you permanently.
Hey! I thought you said you liked tea just not talking about it!
Yes! And technically I’m not even 14 for another week! XD. I was laughing so hard when I saw that. How old did you think I was?
Hmmm. Half of me wants to join in the debate and the other half doesn’t. Here. I’ll just give my opinion, but not get really involved. (Maybe) So… I believe that you can’t lose your salvation. But if you don’t really believe in Jesus and think you do but don’t really that doesn’t count. So you have to truly believe. Okay. So I think that made sense.
And… what’s the baby shark song? I haven’t heard of it. (Granted I don’t pay much attention to the news. At all. Or celebrities. Or anything popular really.)
- This reply was modified 3 years ago by Veraza Winterknight.
"You can dance with my henchman."November 20, 2018 at 11:01 pm #60722Eden Anderson@eden-anderson
Hey people…I was in the last theological debate that went on here…and it was really good for me, in strengthening my beliefs and helping me come to a better understanding of why I believe what I believe. I don’t plan on getting as heavily involved in this discussion, but when I saw what ya’ll were talking about I felt like I had to comment.
I know this is gonna sound weird, but as I was reading over this new discussion, my eyes filled with tears and I began to cry. Some of the stuff that was said just broke my heart.
And as in the last debate, I am gonna be that oddball and go against the flow, not because it’s fun or because I like to be different, but because this is what I believe to the core of my being, it’s a fundamental foundation of my faith. ( because if I am honest being different isn’t fun…in fact there’s been times when I have been ashamed of what I believe…when all I want to do is fit in…but i am coming to the realization that what i believe is nothing to be ashamed of.)
I believe that you can lose your salvation. I believe that the grace of God is free for EVERYONE. (John 3:16) I believe that when Adam sinned in the garden it affected every man ever to live, and that Jesus came, not for “certain special elected” but for every one who lives and breathes.
Everyone has a chance.
And to answer your question, @theinconceivable1 no, I am not going to change my mind because of some strangers on the internet gave “proof” or “evidence” that I am wrong. I feel personally that that is extremely dangerous…we must go to God and his word for truth, not to men just because we think that they have good arguments. ( do you get what I am saying, I feel like I might come across as rude and I don’t mean to be at ALL…this is just really serious to me…please understand.)
"But how could you live and have no story to tell?" - Fyodor DostoyevskyNovember 20, 2018 at 11:29 pm #60725
@eden-anderson @theinconceivable1 @serenity… Wow, this is gonna be a lot harder than I anticipated. Every part of me wants to burst and I may just step in after all. Either way I will work hard to be discerning for my sake as well as yours. *bows*
@catwing, Hey there! How’s it going? It has been a long time. Even if neither of us say anything in this debate, we can at least have a little side discussion off to the side that is absolutely hilarious and acts as comic relief.
Published author, student in writing, works with HazelGracePress.comNovember 20, 2018 at 11:33 pm #60726November 20, 2018 at 11:35 pm #60729
Whoa, there is a lot of content since I was on here a little while ago! 😀 So, Prince Inc, we are keeping this discussion as a kindly-intended, life-changing, fellow-members-of-the-body-of-Christ type of conversation even if we disagree, right?!?! 🙂
@wordsmith That is a lot of confidence on such an important issue! I pray I can live up to your standards… and even more, to God`s, and say the right things from His word alone! :_
@serenity Hi and welcome! I agree with some of what you said about emotions, but I do think that beliefs and convictions are far more important than emotions are, any day! (Emotions are more like an inevitable part of life that must conform to our beliefs and convictions built upon the word of God, and that we must often battle in order to do the right thing.)
Also, in your later post, are you saying that we have absolutely no responsibility in our salvation? That God chooses us, period? Like staunch Calvinism?
I, personally, am neither Calvinist nor Armenian. No, I am not riding the fence! That is something I would not do, ask anyone I know! 😛 I believe that Scripture is clear that both views are true. Multiple places in the Bible reference both as entirely true, and I believe it is like the Trinity- three persons/entities in one triune Being, something our human, little minds cannot grasp until we reach heaven one day. Here are some Scriptures that support both… I could not possibly make a complete list of the giant amount there are in the Bible!
GOD IS SOVEREIGN~
“The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil.” ~Proverbs 16:4
“So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who are called by My name,’ says the Lord, who makes these things known from long ago.” ~Acts 15:17-18
“And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.” ~ Romans 8:28- 30
“For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.” ~Romans 9:15-16
“He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,… also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will.” ~Ephesians 1:5,11
“But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.” ~2 Thessalonians 2:13
“And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.” ~Acts 13:48
MAN IS RESPONSIBLE~
“Who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” ~1 Timothy 2:4
“In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.” ~Ephesians 1:13
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.” ~John 3:16
“The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.” ~1 Peter 3:9
“All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.” ~John 6:37
“And by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.” ~1 Corinthians 15:2
“For ‘everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.'” ~Romans 10:13
“Holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting this, some have made shipwreck of their faith.” ~Timothy 1:19
“For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” ~John 6:40
@theinconceivable1 Wow, I appreciate your outside-the-box view, even if I do not agree with it! 😀
Have you looked at those verses 1)In the context of the chapter/book, and 2)in the original Greek or Hebrew meanings? <em>SO</em> crucial to understand Scripture <em>in context!!! </em>The original text often has a slightly different “accent” or take on the verse or chapter that, when translated into English, gives a different thought or impression.
“…but my question is this: why, if salvation cannot be lost do these ‘if’s exist?”
I would say the short answer to your question is that those verses are describing the already redeemed… and comparing them to the unredeemed. It is describing to you what the saved already <em>do</em>- hold fast until the end, remain firm til the end, endure to the end (to quote the verses). Does that make sense? It is telling you what believers <em>do</em>, and thus <em>know</em> they are saved!
Take Corinthians 15, of your first reference. The whole (and very long) chapter is dedicated to the resurrection of Christ. Paul begins it by reminding the Corinthians of their salvation and goes on to say that that very salvation would be impossible without the resurrection! Because, as he proves in the chapter, they could not be saved and raised as a new creature in Christ without Jesus having rose again. (The Corinthians were under attack by false prophets at the time who disclaimed the resurrection. Thus the need for Paul`s argument.)
I have to say, too, that I am infinitely grateful for all of you… this is SUCH an amazing and transformative conversation! Thrilled that we can discuss it together… and, Lord willing, define in the end exactly what the Word of God does say and mean, and apply it to out lives. You`all are awesome!!
Assistant Guildmaster of the Phantom Awesome Meraki
~ Created to create ~November 20, 2018 at 11:39 pm #60731
Published author, student in writing, works with HazelGracePress.comNovember 20, 2018 at 11:46 pm #60733
Thanks! I’m still debating whether or not I want to join in on the debate. Heh. So this’ll give me something to do while I decide. And after I decide too!
"You can dance with my henchman."November 20, 2018 at 11:48 pm #60734
@kari-karast: “Hey! I thought you said you liked tea just not talking about it!” (shhh! I cant have the-fledgling-artist know that!)
“Yes! And technically I’m not even 14 for another week! XD. I was laughing so hard when I saw that. How old did you think I was?” *mutters* mumhhmhm16… Ok, but seriously, HOW DO YOU WRITE SO WELL FOR ONLY BEING 14!!! AH! this enrages me… why are you gifted with such talent! *realizes he’s the leader of a revolution all about not gettin jelous of other peoples skills* hehe, I mean… good for you : )
“Hmmm. Half of me wants to join in the debate and the other half doesn’t” listen to the half that doesnt XD trust me, these things require some commitment!
“what’s the baby shark song” NO! that song is the bane of my existence!!! all memories of it must be crushed, then drowned, then burnt and the ashes scattered across all 7 seas! (I only know about it because I go to school, REAL school I might add for all you homeschoolers XD Although it is a Christian school so its not quite as bad as public school (honestly thought its pretty close… just cuz it has the label ‘Christian’ doent actually mean the kids are christ following… unfortunately) )
@eden-anderson: Oh good! I’m glad it helped someone beside me : D!
“because if I am honest being different isn’t fun” *mumbles* I mean, its a little fun…
“I believe that you can lose your salvation. I believe that the grace of God is free for EVERYONE” YAY! *gives you a high five* join the ‘can lose your salvation’ club!
“I am not going to change my mind because of some strangers on the internet gave “proof” or “evidence” that I am wrong” ok well, just so you know, predestination in particular (as well as the permanence of salvation) is something I’ve been looking into for over 2 years so this topic is quite personal for me and not “from some stranger on the internet ” Infact, about a year ago, my journey into Calvinism lead me to believe God was evil so… ya, glad God helped me out of that one XD The point is, I’m not regurgitating the internet XD (I have proof from documents I’ve written during that time if you dont belive me) so ya, dont shut down completely just yet XD And dont worry, your not being rude at all!
INTJ- trying to grow into real wisdom; James 3:17November 20, 2018 at 11:50 pm #60735
Hey, you guys! I just wrote that really long post and then saw your comments after I posted it.
@kari-karast Hope you did not mind me mentioning your age… glad I did not give our fearless leader a heart attack by doing so, even if it came close….! 😛
I agree with you, only I would go a bit farther and say that a true Christian must also (at least to some degree, known ultimately to God alone) reflect the fruits of the Spirit as the Spirit that now lives within them! They are different from the world now, redeemed from sin and fleshly desires and live to Christ alone, awaiting their heavenly home.
@eden-anderson Wow, I appreciate your heart! 🙂 Thank you so much for your honesty, no matter what others say. I understand!…. Do you have Scripture to back up your belief that Christians can lose their salvation? Would love to hear you thoughts on that, further.
I do agree that salvation is, in a sense, open to everyone. (Hopefully you have time to read the above post!? :)) I also believe, as I said, though, that God IS sovereign and chooses us “from the foundation of the earth”, as the Bible clearly states. And He is not an ogre for not choosing everyone, He is gracious beyond measure to fallen, rebellious, sinful mankind to save anyone at all!!
Assistant Guildmaster of the Phantom Awesome Meraki
~ Created to create ~November 20, 2018 at 11:53 pm #60736
SIXTEEN!?!?!? OH WOW! THANK YOU FOR THE COMPLIMENT!!!! (I really can’t believe you thought my writing was that good.)
Okay… maybe I’ll stay out of it then.
Alright. I won’t mention the shark song then. (And I am homeschooled actually. XD)
It’s fine. I mean, it was already on here anyway. XD
"You can dance with my henchman."November 20, 2018 at 11:59 pm #60737
@theinconceivable1 Hiya again! 😛 Can you give me some Scriptural backup for your “can lose your salvation” viewpoint?
@eden-anderson I totally agree, BTW, that we should ONLY get our truths, beliefs, convictions, and theology from the Word of God (bathed in prayer and His Spirit) alone!! Nothing else will ever truly matter apart form that, and all will rot and fall away one day.
“Let God be true, though every man be found a liar”. ~Romans 3:4
Assistant Guildmaster of the Phantom Awesome Meraki
~ Created to create ~November 21, 2018 at 12:00 am #60738
Hey! I really appreciate what you have to say here, and I’m not pushing you to claim the Calvinist side at all, but I’d like to clarify what Calvinism says, in interpretation of God’s word:
It starts out with the total depravity, which says that the only good man can do is by God’s working in his life. Man is dead in his trespasses and has no inherit strength to follow the Law, nor bring salvation upon himself. On top of that man is born into sin. The original sin is passed down to us. Now at this point, it’s important to note that the Covenant Of Works instituted for Adam is still in effect… it is not gone. Instead we have a propitiation, that fulfilled the Covenant Of Works, so that all who trusted in Him might be counted as fully righteous, having perfectly stayed in the Covenant Of Works.
This Covenant Of Works still lives on, and those who don’t trust in Christ as their Lord and Savior are still punished because they broke the Covenant. Now… God instituted the Covenant Of Grace in Genesis 3:15. This Covenant Of Grace lives alongside the Covenant Of Works, because Jesus fulfilled the one of works by being perfectly righteous, and then he died to cover our sins and take the eternal punishment for us (not that he is still in eternal punishment… he died once and rose again).
Now… Calvinism takes no responsibility away from man. Man is still responsible for every single sin, and will reap the punishment. Man is still responsible to accept God’s grace, but he only does with the strengthening of The Holy Spirit. Being dead, man must have something else to raise him up, so that he can and will accept the salvation. If his eyes are not opened and the Holy Spirit doesn’t work in his life, he won’t. He can’t. But just as he is still held responsible to accept, and held responsible not to sin, even though he can do neither of those things, when we do accept by the strength given of God, he still accounts it to us by his merciful grace. We are held responsible in the first place… thus he punishes us… or when he brings us up, he still lets us accept! It’s a beautiful thing.
So Calvinism doesn’t deny man’s responsibility, but instead that he has not the strength to accept God’s grace, unless held up by The Holy Spirit, thus having had to be chosen by God. Man alone cannot accept.
I hope that was helpful, and maybe will give a groundwork from which to understand my position (if I ever open my mouth again)… but I wanted to make sure it was clear.
*takes a step back*
Oh! One other thing… I’m not asking for debate on that post… we can just leave it be… you can say agree or not… but I’d rather not debate over it… well… Actually I’d love to, but I don’t have the time. The time I took to write this out took time from my writing time. Thanks… 🙂
Published author, student in writing, works with HazelGracePress.comNovember 21, 2018 at 12:24 am #60743
@selah-chelyah: “I, personally, am neither Calvinist nor Armenian. No, I am not riding the fence! That is something I would not do, ask anyone I know! I believe that Scripture is clear that both views are true. ” Darn! *frowns* well now it just looks like I’m copying you XD Well that part was easy because I full heartedly agree! (although, I will tell you, it was a REALLY hard and REALLY painful conclusion to come too! *shivers as he thinks back* not a fun experience)
“Have you looked at those verses 1)In the context of the chapter/book, and 2)in the original Greek or Hebrew meanings?” Now I know this sounds lame and unintellectual but no, I have not : (. I kinda only do that when there are only one or two verses saying the same thing but, because of their sheer quantity, I’m pretty sure ‘if’ is what these verses mean (and yes, I’m also convinced they are talking, in most cases, of real and genuine belivers.) However I would like to be enlightend and proved wrong! Maybe I need to do a big search and find them all… anyway you said
“I would say the short answer to your question is that those verses are describing the already redeemed… and comparing them to the unredeemed. It is describing to you what the saved already do hold fast until the end, remain firm til the end, endure to the end ”
Ok, sorry, I’m confused… where did you get the whole comparison thing from? Let me look at this again “by which also you are saved, if you hold fast [a]the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.” oh, ok I think I get what your saying (tell me if this is right): You are saved, if you hold fast and thus you arnt saved if you dont. So your arguing that the people who fall away aren’t, in fact, saved. Is that right? Well *brings out the big guns* heres what I got for that!
“For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, [d]since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. ” Hebrews 6: 4-6 NASB
“But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the [h]rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.” Romans 11: 17-23 NASB
(granted this poses some questions as hebrews says, once you fall away you cant come back and romans says you can but I think we can worry about that latter : D)
“For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. 22 [h]It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A dog returns to its own vomit,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.””2 Peter 2: 20-22 NASB
“Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart [c]that falls away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called “Today,” so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,” Hebrews 3:12-14 NASB
Now, I am aware of 1 John 2:19 (and honestly that seem to clearly contradict these verses. I dont know how to answer this I’ll just be honest) but I think these 4 verses are quite clear, those doing the falling away are real, genuinely saved, christians. So ya, thats what I got!
INTJ- trying to grow into real wisdom; James 3:17November 21, 2018 at 12:27 am #60744Catwing@catwing
@theinconceivable1 It’s one of those kind cool, but also slightly annoying songs that gets stuck in your head. That’s not always a bad thing.
I did, cause I was finishing up that scene just then. It was whipped caramel flavor. Now one of my characters is going to burn stuff. 😀
@kari-karast If you dare look up the baby shark song prepare to have all your brain cells singing and throwing all power out the window and not allowing you to focus for a few hours… *is also homeschooled* *looks over her mom’s shoulder at Facebook…*
“I am not going to change my mind because of some strangers on the internet gave “proof” or “evidence” that I am wrong. I feel personally that that is extremely dangerous…we must go to God and his word for truth, not to men just because we think that they have good arguments.”
Yes. Always go to God and His Word. People may fail or mess up, but He does not.
“something our human, little minds cannot grasp until we reach heaven one day.”
*nods from her corner* How true.
I agree with you. Though the best way I can think of to explain what I think about predestination is that God knew what we would choose with free will, he is outside of time, he knew who would choose him and who would shun him. So it’s like one of those time travel stories that makes your head spin. He knows all the people who will choose him. Anyone can come to Christ, but some people sadly don’t. *hopes she is coherent*
@wordsmith Yay! It’s going pretty well all Nano craziness considered. Trying to get my cat used to the new kitten.
Great idea! 😀
@kari-karast Three of my human characters are currently staying in an underwater city so they decided to try out some of the local foods, which includes air in a variety of flavors. Cause we drink liquids it only makes sense they would drink air. But of course since the air wants to rise everyone has to hold their cups upside down or spill their ‘drink’ on the ceiling… They also have upside down cup holders in the restaurant… (The characters have to eat Sirenweed to breathe underwater… I have no idea how that works…).
@selah-chelyah I believe you wanted to know may age, but then when you commented it started a new page, so I don’t think you saw that I said you could guess.
I’m actually pretty curious how old everyone thinks I am…
When your wings are weak and you feel like you can't fly any farther you're halfway there!November 21, 2018 at 12:32 am #60745
@wordsmith: wait, wordsmith, you’re not a Calvinist are you? (not saying thats a bad thing if you are but I dint think you were)
@selah-chelyah: also… thats cheating XD as you said “And He is not an ogre for not choosing everyone” which, I would argue, God does not do because that’s not really Calvinism. I belive God actually chooses some individuals and some not and the individuals actually have legit freewill to choose as they please (Please dont ask me how that works XD)
INTJ- trying to grow into real wisdom; James 3:17
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