October 1, 2018 at 11:57 pm #50322
Yes… Christ’s death and resurrection fulfilled the types and shadows. But as you said, those aren’t what we’re talking about. And I would like to point out that in the OT they were still under a covenant of grace. It wasn’t the law that ever brought man’s salvation, it was and still is God’s grace, just then it was pointing to what Christ what would do, and now we look back on what Christ did do.
And I’m not thinking of times in the OT when evil was done but not condemned. We see in the OT that there is a time to draw the sword, and we see men were fighting for their lives, as well as the lives of others. When someone is attacking me, they are attacking me. But at that time they are also a danger to everyone else. And at what point do we say they are not a danger others?
Also we see evidence in the OT that polygamy is wrong. God refer’s to a man and his wife becoming one… that’s not one man and three women, that’s one man and one woman. Furthermore, it says in Genesis (OT): “Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.”
There are commands given to draw swords, to be guards. In Nehemiah we read: “And I looked and arose and said to the nobles and to the officials and to the rest of the people, ‘Do not be afraid of them. Remember the Lord, who is great and awesome, and fight for your brothers, your sons, your daughters, your wives, and your homes.'”
When I am fighting in self defense, am I fighting for myself only? No.
And in even though in the NT Jesus wouldn’t let them punish certain people, we see Peter brought death down on Ananias and Sapphira. I would argue that Christ is not calling us to be passive recipients of anything that comes our way.
Yes, Jesus tells Peter not to fight for him, but that was because it would interfere with the very thing Jesus had come to Earth to do… and it was the very thing that Peter was constantly not understanding. Further more, we are not to live by the sword. We don’t pick fights, we don’t invite that… but…
And you question as to why we need self defense… God says he will provide us a way out of temptation, and yet we still need to choose that path. Health is a blessing from the Lord, and yet we are not supposed to just drop diet and say “God will bless me as he sees fit.”
Yes God takes care of us so graciously, beyond our imagination. But He takes care of us through Earthly means. I eat healthy food, because I know I will be blessed with health when I eat that. I don’t eat unhealthy food (as much as possible) because it won’t bless me with health it does the opposite. Do you save money? Or spend it all knowing God will take care of you? We are under grace… but not license to sin. Yes once we are saved we cannot lose that. But we are still expected to follow his commandments.
God calls us to prepare. He calls for us to act. He calls for us to not act in certain circumstances. I don’t believe he calls us not to act in self defense.
Published author, student in writing, works with HazelGracePress.comOctober 2, 2018 at 12:02 am #50324
And yes! Please feel free to speak your voice, shedding light on this discussion. 🙂
Published author, student in writing, works with HazelGracePress.comOctober 2, 2018 at 6:04 am #50335theinconceivable1@theinconceivable1
Ok that was really long so I’m going to respond paragraph for paragraph!
1. “And I would like to point out that in the OT they were still under a covenant of grace. It wasn’t the law that ever brought man’s salvation, it was and still is God’s grace” yes… I have found some interesting verses concerning salvation by works in the OT but I dont want to digress so just make mental note, we can talk about that later.
2. “And at what point do we say they are not a danger others?” so your not making an argument for individual self-defense per say but more of a “defending others” position, is that were your going? Also, my point with evil uncondemned its just to say Gods silence doesn’t mean innocence. “We see in the OT that there is a time to draw the sword, and we see men were fighting for their lives, as well as the lives of others.” yes I get there is OT self and other’s defense but, we do have a different context so that doesn’t nessisarly mean its ok in this context. However, I get its there and it could be applicable in our NT context.
3. Uh, well ya we get that original genesis command but you’ve got to see how God doesn’t enforce that almost at all in the OT. Like compared to wrongs like murder where He does punish frequently and harshly. So I’m standing by my point with this one.
4. Ok OT self-defense reference, cool!
5. right, like you said earlier. So is this where your coming from? cuz I was thinking more of an individual self-defense thought I see how your saying there may not be such a thing as “individual self-defense” I might agree, IDK if this is where your coming from then I’ll think about it some more…
6. “And in even though in the NT Jesus wouldn’t let them punish certain people, we see Peter brought death down on Ananias and Sapphira. I would argue that Christ is not calling us to be passive recipients of anything that comes our way.” right but I would say this was more of a unique exersie of Gods authority within the church. this was a demonstration against sin. Of corse were not supposed to be passive about sin in Gods community but thats not the kind of “action” self-defence” is talking about. With self-defence you (or your community) is being harmed by people outside the church (if its occurring inside the church then thats a whole new can of worms XD) Its diffrent then combating sin within the church body (if you see what I mean…)
7.alright, then can we both agree the Peter with the sword thing wasn’t really about self-defence?
8. alright this is a good point. Um, the question here is how do we pair action with faith? cuz in one sense ”
Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes? 26 Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27 Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life[a]?
8. “And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendorwas dressed like one of these. 30 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith? 31 So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.” so yes we are actually called to be “passive” in a way but theirs also verses that say things like “and to make it your ambition to lead a quiet life: You should mind your own business and work with your hands, just as we told you,” so, in this particular example, God says not to worry about food because he will provide it yet he also says to work. I think the relationship with “passiveness” and “activeness” pertaining self-defense is likely the same. So you know what, as I think about this, you might be right. Some self-defending actiction might be biblical. there’s some ballence between inaction and action… like Paul didnt just lie down and die when he got caught. He escaped if possible which, i guess, is a form of self-defence. So ya, Wordsmith, you’ve got me budge : D. I admit to some “self-defence’ action being biblical but only in the form of removing yourself from the situation. I still disagree that you can attack the other person, in self-defence.
9. hehe, I dont believe in permonate salvation but we’ll talk about that latter XD
10. lastly I dont think you answered this question: “So do you believe that, if I attacked you, and it was either I kill you or you kill me that you can kill me in “self defence” biblically? if so then couldn’t that work on a smaller scale? So if I attacked you, you could punch me even if I didn’t punch you first, in self-defense. Cuz I mean think about it, is “you were going to hurt me so I hurt you” something we should do as Christians? ” if you did and I just didnt notice, I’m sorry!
INTJ- trying to grow into real wisdom; James 3:17October 2, 2018 at 11:01 am #50364
@theinconceivable1, it would be fun to help out!
What do you think about stopping someone attacking a child or something similar, and protecting the child, but not hurting the actual bad person? Hopefully, that isn’t too confusing. BTW, I do believe similar to all you’ve pointed out.
Living in a world of mystery and dangerous predicaments while working with the AWESOME Meraki's.October 2, 2018 at 12:04 pm #50381Hedges@h-jones
Holy cow, I clicked this thinking about saying something like “Hi! I’m not a guy, but I do love the Princess Bride,” and then I discovered that there’s a full-blown theology discussion going down. That’s awesome, dudes.
Married a blacksmith, and now frequently uses his knowledge for writing fantasy.October 2, 2018 at 12:07 pm #50383
@h-jones, do you like discussing theology?
Living in a world of mystery and dangerous predicaments while working with the AWESOME Meraki's.October 2, 2018 at 12:26 pm #50385Hedges@h-jones
@parker I do. 🙂 In fact, it’s one of my favorite things to do! And, after
stalkingcatching up on @theinconceivable1 and @wordsmith ‘s conversation, I have to say that this is a really interesting topic, guys. Both of your insights are very interesting. Self-defense is one of the most controversial topics in the world, not even just in the Christian society. You’re both handling it very well, and I think that in a lot of ways, you’re both right. All in all, I think it could sometimes come down to the situation you’re presented with, and guidance from the Holy Spirit. It may not always be right to let something slide, and it may not always be right to “strike someone back,” per se, at least in my opinion. A lot of it could depend on context, conscience, motivation and your heart’s intentions.
Plus, a quote I heard from the story of Alvin York (an amazing story by the way that I suggest everyone read about) on warfare: “It’s not about fighting what you hate, it’s about protecting what you love.” Or something along those lines. 🙂 Or maybe I got that from Star Wars Ep. VIII… ha. Idk. xDDDD
So, that’s just my two cents. Continue to have your friendly debate, dudes, honestly my interest is peaked. xDD
- This reply was modified 3 years, 7 months ago by Hedges.
- This reply was modified 3 years, 7 months ago by Hedges.
Married a blacksmith, and now frequently uses his knowledge for writing fantasy.October 2, 2018 at 12:28 pm #50388
@h-jones, yes It’s really enjoyable.
Living in a world of mystery and dangerous predicaments while working with the AWESOME Meraki's.October 2, 2018 at 1:35 pm #50396Ryker Dawson@ryker-dawson
Hey there! Glad to find a group of guys who write.
Writer, ENTP, Chaotic Good. Things about to get crazy.October 2, 2018 at 2:20 pm #50401eden anderson@eden-anderson
Great conversation! Yeah, I know, I’m a girl…so technically not invited,😄 but I got caught up reading your debate and was like “I have to comment on this!” I love to get into big arguments with people (it runs in the family, I think. 😛) so when I saw this I was instantly interested.
Okay, so I happen be a Mennonite. (I’m probably the only one on this whole site.😀) And Mennonites are a religious denomination that holds strongly to their commitment of pacifism, and so we believe that any sort of killing, in self-defense or in defense of any one else is sin and forbidden by God’s Word. (Here’s what Wikipedia says: Christian pacifism is the theological and ethical position that any form of violence is incompatible with the Christian faith. Christian pacifists state that Jesus himself was a pacifist who taught and practiced pacifism and that his followers must do likewise. And I agree with it.)
Now, that said, I have often thought about this subject myself and have questioned the Anabaptist stand on self-defense…(just because I was raised a certain way doesn’t mean I embrace everything my parents and pastor have taught me.)
Anyway, I have often wondered if maybe self-defense isn’t wrong, as long as we’re defending our family from those who would wish to harm them. Or maybe it’s okay to go to war because we’re standing up for things that are good, like peace and freedom.
But over the years and as I’ve gotten older I’ve come to believe certain things about this subject and I just thought I’d throw them into this conversation. (Add my two cents and hope I don’t step on too many toes. 😛)
1. I believe that any sort of killing is wrong. However I DO BELIEVE that if you see or know of someone being harmed/wronged (and I’m talking about stuff like murder, child abuse, sex trafficking, things like that) it is your responsibility to alert those in authority who can stop what is happening.
2. And since you guys touched on this; I also believe that’s Christ’s coming and death on the cross fulfilled the Old Testament Law and while his death didn’t throw away the Law, it did release us from it. To defend killing and self-defense by saying that God looked away in the Old Testament while “good guys” like Joshua, David, Gideon killed a bunch of people and therefore it must be okay for us, isn’t logical. There were things that God overlooked in the Old Testament, like polygamy, killing in war, but we no longer live under the Old Testament Law and God no longer over looks those offenses.
3. I believe that we are to live a peaceably as we can, and if we are ever threatened we have every right to flee for our lives, but in the case that there is nothing we can do other than kill the person attacking us, we should be at peace in God’s hands. I mean seriously, when it’s my time to die, it’s my time to die, and nobody in the whole world or all the forces of hell combined are gonna stop it.
Sorry for the ramble and hope that made sense. 😀 There’s so much more that could be said and I’ve got SO much more to learn. You guys made some really good points and there was a lot of stuff I agreed with. But, I’m sure your views differ from mine, so I would love to hear feedback. But if you don’t have time…that’s fine. And if you already talked about all the stuff I said…fine. 😛 I’m not trying to dominate the conversation or meddle where I’m not wanted.
There…that was my confession. 😛
Keep up the great convo and if it’s less confusing to ignore me, by all means, please ignore me.
- This reply was modified 3 years, 7 months ago by eden anderson.
"But how could you live and have no story to tell?" - Fyodor DostoyevskyOctober 2, 2018 at 2:21 pm #50402storyjoy@storyjoy
I’m a girl, but I just had to get on here because I was stalking you guys’ conversation and read through your story, Your Time is Running Out….
AAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH. IT. WAS. AMAZING. Seriously. SO GOOD. (And no, I am most definitely not just saying that.)
Ya, there were a few spelling/grammar errors and whatnot, but everyone has those. 😛 The idea, and the way it was written… it was REALLY, REALLY good. REALLY good. xD
Anyway, just had to say that. I’ll be out of here now and let you guys continue on. (But I won’t promise I won’t keep stalking. 😇)
Oh, and, um, sorry for interrupting the theological debate. You may proceed. xD
- This reply was modified 3 years, 7 months ago by storyjoy.
*cartwheels out*October 2, 2018 at 2:29 pm #50408
@eden-anderson @storyjoy @h-jones, keep on stalking! I may not reply to you immediately, but hopefully will get around someday.
@theinconceivable1, I have not forgotten 🙂 replies like this just take lots of thought and careful wording.
Published author, student in writing, works with HazelGracePress.comOctober 2, 2018 at 2:37 pm #50410eden anderson@eden-anderson
I totally understand. LIFE CAN BE SO CRAZY. And we don’t really have time to go around reading everything everybody ever posts. 😀 And yeah, I probably should have been working on my latest story instead of rambling on about self-defense. 😛😛
There is way to much stuff too do and not enough time to do it…*sigh*
"But how could you live and have no story to tell?" - Fyodor DostoyevskyOctober 2, 2018 at 2:41 pm #50411
I’m glad you took the time to reply. An interesting view that I have never heard before from another person.
Published author, student in writing, works with HazelGracePress.comOctober 2, 2018 at 5:39 pm #50439The Fledgling Artist@the-fledgling-artist
sorry boys, another gal is going to invade your thread.
@eden-anderson No way, I’m Mennonite too! (I didn’t grow up Mennonite for the first 6 or 7 years of my life, but at some point my family joined a Mennonite church.) So I agree with what you have said, although we (my family) use the term nonresistance rather then pacifism. They are very close, but not quite the same thing. The difference is that nonresistance in addition to not harming or killing others, it’s also the idea of not getting involved in government activities. War being a prime example. But that would also include joining the police force, or voting. I know there are lots of “flavors” (as my dad likes to put it) of Mennonite s so I’m sure our worldview isn’t totally the same. But it’s very cool for me to bump into another Anabaptist!
For all of you who are stalking this thread along with me, and have any questions..Or challenges on anything I’ve said I would love to try to answer you! I don’t think I am a very knowledgeable person but I’ll do my best!😊
"Though I'm not yet who I will be, I'm no longer who I was."
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.