October 8, 2018 at 2:04 pm #51587
And furthermore… “16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.” (2 Timothy 3:16-17)
Published author, student in writing, works with HazelGracePress.comOctober 8, 2018 at 2:54 pm #51598
I know I said I was outta this argument, but once I got off this forum I went and read my bible and was looking up verses about killing and felt like I should share some of these.
So at the risk of annoying you and @theinconceivable1, here goes…
Starting out in Matthew chapter 5
I think we’re all familiar with theses verses: Jesus is teaching the crowds and after he gives a bunch of beatitudes, he goes on to discribe how we are to live in this present world:
Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
Then he goes on to talk about the Law
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
How much clearer can you get??? In this passage Jesus quotes the Old Testament Law- “Thou shalt not kill…” But now that command holds SO much more weight…if we just think about killing someone or have hateful thoughts aganist them we are in danger of hellfire.
Only five verses later and Jesus basically says the same thing:
Mat 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
Mat 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
While those living under the Old Testament Law were commanded not to commit adultery, the command for us today is much more strict and heavy, “Whosoever looketh,”
We don’t even have to actually physically commit the sin, we just have to think about it and we’re sinning.
Whoa. That’s harsh…but it’s truth
I’m not a bible scholar, there’s so much I don’t know…but I feel like these verses are pretty clear. Check out the entire chapter of Matthew 5.
(hope you don’t mind I jumped back in.) 😀
"But how could you live and have no story to tell?" - Fyodor DostoyevskyOctober 8, 2018 at 3:19 pm #51606
Hey there! I don’t mind at all.
First off, the word “kill” is an incorrect translation. We know that it wasn’t wrong to kill in battle, self defense, or defense of others, in the OT. Second it says angry without cause and yet in Ephesians it tells us “Be angry and do not sin.” Besides that if someone is trying to kill me, and others around, unless I brought it upon myself, I don’t count him as a brother, because of his fruit. It doesn’t mean he isn’t, but at that point I don’t treat him as a brother. And Jesus not setting a new bar. Even back then it was a great sin to think of murdering someone. He is enforcing something that was already a thing.
And thus I repeat, morality is not being changed.
- This reply was modified 2 years, 11 months ago by Buddy J..
Published author, student in writing, works with HazelGracePress.comOctober 8, 2018 at 3:20 pm #51608
Also… have you read my two latest posts?
Published author, student in writing, works with HazelGracePress.comOctober 8, 2018 at 7:30 pm #51685Ara@itisastarrynight
@theinconceivable1 Ah sorry for the confusian! I am a girl 🙂 I just said “we men” to refer to that we are humans. Also forgive my unpoliteness for not introducing myself. Hi!
Ahh yes.. Recently I’ve been disappointed by unanswered prayers and having to wait, too. Not that I am in the same boat as you, but maybe I can see where you are coming from.
I think the value found in discussion, or seeking other’s opinions varies. If I am unsure of
what a scripture means I may ask a couple of different people what they think. The truth is
maybe they’re seeing something I am not! This has been the case before for me, so it really
can be helpful sometimes. I think God can and does reveal things to us through what other people say.
Many today proclaim to know Him, and don’t–even those in our Churches! I find it a waste of time to ask these folk questions about Scripture(matt.7:20) So I want to be sure those I am talking to really are following Christ. And I don’t want to cause argument, either. (because of this I shy away from internet discussions, but perhaps it is a good way to talk to varied people groups with different perspectives)
So there really isn’t anything wrong of discussion in of itself I think, but you wouldn’t want to go about it trying to “win”. It really just depends on the motive for discussion that can be bad. It is just most important to have this as the “side dish” and not the “main dish”, if you get my drift. Even when there are things in the Bible we do not understand(happened to me today,again)we should look to scripture and trust (and pray!)that by the Holy Spirit’s aid it will explain itself. Even though I oft get confused about this thing or that thing, it is more important to simply diligently try living out all that I do understand in scripture, along with praying that God would help me understand. God certainly does reveal himself through what other people say, but the Bible is the clearest word from God. And anything anyone says in discussion should be compared to scripture before denied or accepted into a part of our beleif. People’s minds lack understanding, but God’s word is complete and accurate.
I think there is something worth mentioning to caution when it comes to discussion. If you ask “what is this verse saying?” it may be unprofitable to just draw out millions of other verses and say, “well it can’t surely be saying this because of this other scripture”. It is good to compare verses because they do explain one another, but instead of doing the former can we just simply sit down and think about what it does mean?
James 1:5, “If any one of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering”
1 John 2:27 As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.
John 14:26 “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
Proverbs 2:3-5 Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding; If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures; Then shalt thou understand the fear of the Lord, and find the knowledge of God.
Sketching with no reference is like hiking without a map!October 8, 2018 at 8:03 pm #51710Ara@itisastarrynight
@eden-anderson so sorry! I didn’t mean to upset you at all.
My drawings are pretty cartoonized as well, though recently I have been trying to learn to draw realisticly, because I like it 🙂
Sketching with no reference is like hiking without a map!October 9, 2018 at 12:08 pm #51929
Okay…*sigh*…wow this is a huge subject and there is so much to say…but I have limited time so I’ll try to keep my reply short and sweet…no promises. XD
Yes, I did go back and read your earlier posts…you made some good points, but I think your confused with some things. (I am too, for that matter. 😀)
I agree with what you say about us being released from the Law. But I’ll repeat what I’ve said before, God overlooked things in the OT that he no longer overlooks since Jesus came. With the coming and death of Jesus we were released from the bondage of the Old Law, which you refer to. But who are we to decide what Christ fulfilled and what Christ didn’t fulfill? I believe that when Christ came he fulfilled the Old Law…ALL OF IT. And we now have a new standard of living. They didn’t have the Holy Spirit in the OT. This is an extensive subject, about Jesus’ fulfillment of the OT Law, and so much more could be said, but I’m gonna move on.
You said: “And yes… he does call us to be like him… but we are not here for the same purpose. In fact I found a self defense passage where Jesus seems to be promoting self defense: “But no one can enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man. Then indeed he may plunder his house.” Mark 3:27”
Jesus is using a parable which was his method of teaching to help the common people understand heavenly principles. With all respect, you took this out of context. It’s not about self-defense or defending our homes and families…it’s talking about how a house dividend against it’s self cannot stand. Jesus is making the argument that he is not casting out devils by the devil, because he is against the devil. He’s using that before mentioned verse as an illustration to prove his point. And he’s also talking about blaspheming the Holy Spirit, not self-defense. I think we should read that passage of scripture in it’s whole context, just like everything else in the Bible.
Moving on. I quote you again: “We see over and over again that a man is justified in fighting for himself and for others. When the men go to get water for David, they do so knowing they will fight. They don’t wait until they are attacked, they attack and fight to the water. At the point they are on their way there, they are fighting to keep themselves alive… but also fighting because if they die they are leaving their king vulnerable. And so I think we are permitted to fight so as not to leave our family vulnerable.”
Actually, we don’t see verses that justify a man fighting for himself. (Maybe in the OT…but we don’t live under that law anymore.) We see over and over again verses of turning the other cheek, loving our enemies, denying ourselves, taking up our crosses. What is the second GREATEST commandment which is used in both the OT and the NT? “Love thy neighbor as thyself…” (Mat. 22:35-40) Who is our neighbor? (Luke 10: 25:37) Everyone we meet. Including those who are attacking us.
“When you mention turning the other cheek, that would be in contradiction to much of scripture, unless we read it as not having revenge, which really makes more sense, in both the language and consistency.” Quoting you again. Jesus speaks very clearly about this (Mat 5:38-48) and it is a idea that is repeated all throughout Scripture and Jesus demonstrated it himself in his response to those who mistreated and even killed him.
Okay, so about Ephesians. (The verse Eph. 4:26) I agree with you about righteous anger. But here Paul is quoting from Psalms 4, which is David talking about the difference between sinners and the godly and that the godly find peace in God. I don’t know how much that ties in with self-defence and Matthew 5:22.
So, do you believe that it’s okay to kill an unbeliever in self-defense, but not a “brother”?(or fellow christian) That doesn’t really make sense and goes against God’s clear message throughout Scripture. If we do believe that it’s okay to kill other Christians who are attacking us or our family, then how do we resolve verses like Matthew 5: 21-22, (murdering a brother like we were talking about before) It’s not logical that Jesus would say that we can kill his own children. How does killing a fellow believer tie in with “doing all for the edifying of the saints?” (Eph. 4:12)
Now, logic and pulling verses out of Scripture is fine, I’ve been doing that myself.
But I think we should focus on the character of God. God is loving, and just and holy. Supreme, all powerful, perfect. He created life (Gen 1:1, Gen 2:7, Ps 139:13-15, John 1:1-4) In his hands and his alone, lies the authority to give or take life. People think that they have the authority, (murder, abortion, any type of killing)…but it’s foolish to think that we can take authority from God and use it to destroy human life. Especially believers who are created new in Christ Jesus, we have put the old behind us, and we of all people should know where our rights end. We do not have the right to take life, even in self-defense.
Can we as believers in Jesus, with a clear conscience, take the life of another human? If they are an unbeliever we are sending them to eternal punishment. Hell. And I think I would rather die then live with the guilt that I sent someone to hell.
When did defending our lives, our families and material possessions (which will burn up anyway), become more important then the soul of another human? You might argue that your defending an unbelieving family member so they get a chance to repent…but in God’s eyes, no one is more important then anybody else and he wants EVERYBODY, including the person attacking you, to come to repentance. Besides, if God wants to give that family member the chance to repent, he can keep them alive himself, he doesn’t need our help.
While we’re on the subject of family, what does Jesus say in Luk 14:25-27?
And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them,
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
In the above verses Jesus is not saying we should actually HATE our family…that doesn’t make sense either. I’m gonna steal a quote from Timothy Keller’s book Jesus, the King about these verses: “Jesus is not calling us to hate actively; he’s calling us to hate comparatively. He says: “I want you to follow me so fully, so intensely, so enduringly that all other attachments in your life look like hate by comparison.”” end of quote.
So, our love for God has to come before anything important to us, even before family or our own life. This is a main part of the Christian life. Check out what Jesus says in Mark 8:35-38.
And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel’s, the same shall save it.
For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
Jesus calls us to deny ourselves. This means denying our “right” to be healthy, our “right” to family, our “right” to worldly possessions, and our “right” to life it’s self. Is it logical to say that it’s okay to kill in self-defense, while at the same time claiming complete allegiance to Jesus Christ? Killing, even in self-defense, doesn’t sound like taking up our cross or denying ourselves. It sounds like “I’ve got the right to my life and I’ve got more of a right to live than this person who is attacking me.” Nothing sacrificial or denying about that.
Yes, those above verses are radical but Jesus Christ calls us to a radical life and we can’t ignore his commands just because we don’t like them.
So, to wrap this all up…we are called, as children of God, to model the example of Christ in our daily lives, to strive to live sanctified, holy lives in Jesus Christ. Killing, the ending of precious life, has no place in the life of a child of God. It goes against the direct command to “love our enemies” and contradicts the clear message of the Gospel.
I’m still learning @wordsmith and some of this stuff I feel hesitant about saying because it’s one thing to preach it and tell everybody how they should do it, it’s something else entirely to live it out. I know I don’t deny my family, I don’t take up my cross, I don’t always strive to do what’s right…it’s really hard and I fall short so MANY times. But I think that just makes the grace of God all the more beautiful
Thanks for listening to me. I really appreciate that. Hopefully this was coherent, I think I might have dived off onto bunny trails at times, but I really hope that what I said made sense. 😀😀
(Whew, that was a long reply…You probably have grey hairs by the time you’re reading this sentence. 😛)
But in all seriousness, blessings as you seek the truth.
God’s word is truth…not mine.
"But how could you live and have no story to tell?" - Fyodor DostoyevskyOctober 9, 2018 at 12:51 pm #51935
I want to apologize, guys. Even after Inconceivable encouraged me to stay in the debate I couldn’t get myself to say anything else. I’m not the kind of person to enjoy debates, as I hate anything that feels like a conflict or unresolved issue. I was more under the impression that this was a debate simply for the sake of a debate. A “Let’s see how long it takes me to win” kind of scenario. Maybe this was wrong of me to assume your intentions for this conversation. I think it’s really, really cool that you want to learn and explore biblical issues you haven’t heard much about. I feel pretty inadequate when it comes to explaining and even understanding the scriptures, but If you guys are still into this and you have any questions for me I can try to answer you. If I can be of any help to you at all I want to be willing to put the time and thought to be helpful to you guys. 🙂 All that being said I feel like Eden Anderson explained a lot of my thoughts (with quite a bit more eloquence then I could have) In her latest post. Nevertheless here I am if you have more questions. @all-you-lovely-debaters
"Though I'm not yet who I will be, I'm no longer who I was."October 9, 2018 at 12:57 pm #51936
@the-fledgling-artist, We forgive you 🙂 I know many people who really dislike debate… my father is one of them. I on the other hand kind of run in the direction of conflict, but I don’t expect anyone to follow me there, and if I were I would be a really terrible friend. Thus, I understand why you would think that. Cheers!
@eden-anderson, Com’n back around! These things require thought and deep study and prayer… thus it may take me a little while to get back. But I indeed shall 😉
Published author, student in writing, works with HazelGracePress.comOctober 9, 2018 at 1:51 pm #51962
Hey, I totally get where you’re coming from. I started out joining this discussion mostly because it was interesting and I enjoy arguing. 😀 But as time went on, I became more concerned about speaking the truth, then about winning an argument. This discussion has also helped me sort out some of the stuff I believe, so I’m glad I got in on it.
Did I actually make sense?! I felt like I tried to stuff a bunch of ideas into a few paragraphs, and ended up being confusing.
Self-defense and killing is a deep subject and I know I need to do more studying on it too. Take as much time as you need…this is about the truth, not about who wins the argument.
Even if you reply to what I said, I don’t think I’ll really have much more to say on this subject…I think I should just let the Word of God speak for it’s self. It definitely doesn’t need my help. 😀
But thanks for letting me jump in and share my two cents.
"But how could you live and have no story to tell?" - Fyodor DostoyevskyOctober 9, 2018 at 3:43 pm #51997
@eden-anderson Yeah, trying to communicate the depths of the Word of God with our limited human abilities is really hard. Especially for the extra uneloquent like myself. But you did just great! I felt like all the little pieces came together and tied into your larger message/point. 🙂
"Though I'm not yet who I will be, I'm no longer who I was."October 9, 2018 at 3:46 pm #51999
@wordsmith Thanks! I’m glad you understand.Though, It wouldn’t hurt me to stretch myself out of my comfort zone a little haha. Like I said I want to be available if you or anyone else has questions. ^-^
"Though I'm not yet who I will be, I'm no longer who I was."October 9, 2018 at 5:57 pm #52025
Hey guys… this conversation is amazing. I have never been tested on my beliefs so, and although I still hold them, I definitely sympathize with your points. I have enjoyed looking into this, but must say I need to step away. Yesterday it took me all morning to work out my reply, and at this point in order to reply in a sufficient way, it is going to take more time than I have to give right now.
My school needs to get done.
So I thank you all! May God’s light prevail (as we know it will) 🙂
God bless you all and your study of His word. Please feel free to pray for me in this, as it weighs heavily into the current direction my life is headed.
Published author, student in writing, works with HazelGracePress.comOctober 9, 2018 at 6:00 pm #52027theinconceivable1@theinconceivable1
@wordsmith: *a trumpet sounded and its summons echoed through the meadow. I charged up a hill, the sun gleaming off my armor. readying my sword I reached the peek and gazed into the valley. A giant, ten feet tall and with arms the size of tree trunks towered before me. I faltered and swallowed hard “this is going to be harder then I thought.”*
Alright wordsmith *cracks his knuckles* Lets do this! (also, if these are your stale crackers I really dont want to meet your fresh crackers XD)
“I will start out by sending you Romans six and seven… because you took both of those Romans passages out of context. Romans eight still applies here, but it’s not crucial to my point. This chunk of Romans says two things that I believe are very important here (though I’m sure it says more than that). A. There is still a law we are to follow, B. We cannot follow it perfectly which would result in our death but Christ took that off of us so we can strive for it without worrying about it crushing us.” *talks a deep breath and then realises it slowly* I cant really disagree with you here… I mean the verse coming to mind is
“By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome. ” (1 John 5: 2-4)
So ya, I guess I have no choice but to agree with you here…
@eden-anderson: you said “believe that when Christ came he fulfilled the Old Law…ALL OF IT. And we now have a new standard of living.”
I was thinking the same thing but now I’m not so sure… I think Wordsmiths right, were still called to obey the law, at least some part of it… However I do think you raised a very valid point “But who are we to decide what Christ fulfilled and what Christ didn’t fulfill?” wordsmith, how do we decide between moral law and Mosaic law? Becase the mosaic law definitely was fulfilled ,the NT makes that quite clear. However, for lack of a better argument “Thus I conclude here that Jesus never changed morality. We are still to follow the (moral) law, but are not bound to it for justification which would result in our going to hell.” However, I will add to your conclusion the word moral for the sake of clarification. Alright, wordsmith, you have fulfilled point 3 of my ‘convince me’ requirements (in regard to the moral law) however you still face the problem of points 1 and 2 before I come to your side XD.
“Now! I say that NT doesn’t trump OT, and that’s because it doesn’t need to.” I still hold to my argument of different ‘times’. Unless clearly part of the moral law, we cannot assume a command from the OT applies to the new testiment (for reasons previously listed: namely context)
“Also… If you get to say that the sword thing doesn’t apply to us because it’s in the OT I get to say that about Jesus sermon on the mount. It’s in the OT. Yeah… that doesn’t work.” ya, I agree… That logic has problems XD
“And yes… he does call us to be like him… but we are not here for the same purpose. In fact I found a self defense passage where Jesus seems to be promoting self-defense: “But no one can enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man. Then indeed he may plunder his house.” Mark 3:27 ” I argue we are still here to live as Jesus did and as Eden put it “We see over and over again verses of turning the other cheek, loving our enemies, denying ourselves, taking up our crosses.” That is the NT Christian calling, its very clear threw out scripture.
As for your parable verse, I wouldn’t put to much weight on it. Parables, are analogies, useful for some truths but never fully accurate. They cant be taken to mean anything but what they were designed to mean. Otherwise, we could take this parable:
“And he told them a parable to show that they must always pray and not be discouraged, 2 saying, “There was a certain judge in a certain town who did not fear God and did not respect people. 3 And there was a widow in that town, and she kept coming to him, saying, ‘Grant me justice against my adversary!’ 4 And he was not willing for a time, but after these things he said to himself, ‘Even if I do not fear God or respect people, 5 yet because this widow is causing trouble for me, I will grant her justice, so that she does not wear me down in the end by her[a]coming back!’” 6 And the Lord said, “Listen to what the unrighteous judge is saying! 7 And will not God surely see to it that justice is done to his chosen ones who cry out to him day and night, and will he delay toward them?”(Luke 18:1-7 NIV)
and say God listens to use if/ because were annoying XD It just doesn’t work. Your parable is not talking about self-defence and thus cannot be used to say something about self-defense (as I see it)
“And so I think we are permitted to fight so as not to leave our family vulnerable.” again, this is ‘corporate self-defence’ the argument that its ok to defend yourself cuz it helps someone else. Now (unless you want to try and prove their inseparable) were talking about just defending yourself for the sake of saving yourself, not others. Also does “making sure your family’s not vulnerable” really justify potentualy sending someone to hell? as Eden said “Can we as believers in Jesus, with a clear conscience, take the life of another human? If they are an unbeliever we are sending them to eternal punishment. Hell. And I think I would rather die then live with the guilt that I sent someone to hell.”
“When you mention turning the other cheek, that would be in contradiction to much of scripture, unless we read it as not having revenge, which really makes more sense, in both the language and consistency.” eden already adressed this but, just so you know, I do think your interpritain as a ‘dont take revenge’ verse is correct in this case : D.
“In Philippians: “Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others. In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus” (Philippians 2: 3-5) That is not only referring to our relationships with one another (brothers and sisters), but it’s also referring to selfish ambitions or vain conceit. Self defense is neither of those, and if a person is attacking us we can assume by their fruit, that they are not a brother or sister. ” so you belive were only ment to have the mindset of christ in our relationships? I’m pretty sure we can both agree “having the mindset of christ” applies to everything.
“Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma.”This is in the context of how we act in accordance with fellow saints” I’m confused, are you claiming we are only supposed to love christians? thats not what your saying right?
““Be angry and do not sin;” There is a place for righteous anger. Anger is a form of resistance, whether physical or not.” Uh I find this controversial, namely because I recently discovered a verse in James which says “for the anger of man does not produce the righteousness of God.” (James 1:20)
alright, im sorry but I’ve got to go. I’m in NZ, on break for goodness sake and theres no way i can stay inside anylonger XD
INTJ- trying to grow into real wisdom; James 3:17October 9, 2018 at 6:24 pm #52029
Hey, y’all it’s been good. I’ve really enjoyed our discussion…but I’m kinda feeling the same way wordsmith is…at least about time. I was up really late last night, studying and writing up my reply. Then I spent most of this morning polishing it up and posting it…which isn’t really helpful in getting my school work done. 😛 I’m still glad I said what I did though.
And yes, @wordsmith, I will pray for you. May God continue to bless you as you search his Word and look for his guidance in your life.
To all of you… see you around the forum, I hope I keep bumping into to you. Meanwhile y’all have a good life! 😀😀😀
– Eden 🦔
"But how could you live and have no story to tell?" - Fyodor Dostoyevsky
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