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A Street Team? Is that what they're called?

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  • #98879
    Livi Ryddle
    @anne_the_noob14

    @wordsmith    *shakes head* But see… Prehaps what I’m saying is since I have no expectations (or do I? That’s curious..), I cannot be “disappointed.” No matter the outcome. And if I have no expectations, something being unexpected might as well be expected, since I do not expect. For example. Suppose I found a seed. A random seed, in a random place. I don’t know what kind it is. But I plant it. And I do not expect it to do anything. No… I just have no expectations at all. So it’s not that I expect it to do nothing, I just don’t expect. Now, if I had expected it to grow, then if it had not grown, that would have been unexpected. Or if I had expected it NOT to grow, and it DID, that would be unexpected. Or if I KNEW (different than expecting) that it would grow, but I expected it to be an apple tree (because it looks like an apple seed, and maybe I found it beside an apple core), then if it grew poison ivy, that would be unexpected. But if I simply don’t expect… There’s nothing (I think) that you can do about it.

    And, on the subject of being caught off guard by your pinto beans, I actually did expect something besides coffee beans. So that didn’t throw me. Strike one  😛

    “Enough! Be quiet! I can’t hear myself think! I can’t hear my teeth chatter!"

    #98963
    Buddy J.
    @wordsmith

    @anne_the_noob14… ah. Alas, I am disappointed my pinto bean example didn’t work. I guess I was working to far within the realm of possibility. But! Here you show the weakness of your argument. For in the example of the bean… what you show is the realm of possibility, as far as you know. You explain it to a T… which means all of it can be expected. This makes not expecting a desired outcome detachment from emotional expectation. It is whether you want it to happen one way or another. Both are possible, and that you acknowledge, so you relieve yourself from the tension of bias.

    When I refer to the unexpected… I speak of a place where bias in impossible. A place where the unexpected is that which cannot be prepared for, because it is not within the realm of being known. It might be “known” as something that could happen, but only by fantasy or extremity. Or maybe it is not known that such a thing could happen, nor even expected to come from such a place, so it catches off guard. This is not the quelling of expectation… but a place where expectation can’t be quelled. And in saying your expecting the unexpected makes it all expected, you blind yourself to that which will surprise. *bows* Don’t confuse quelling bias with expecting the unexpected. For that… that is a paradoxical thing.

     

    Published author, student in writing, works with HazelGracePress.com

    #98971
    Livi Ryddle
    @anne_the_noob14

    @wordsmith *shakes head* The fact that something can be explained doesn’t necessarily mean it can be expected.* For example, I can explain how aliens could take over earth. But that doesn’t mean it can be expected. I can explain how I could go about murdering somebody. But that doesn’t mean it can be (or should be) expected.

    *In reality, I suppose anything and everything can be expected. But the fact that something is possible (the “can” part), doesn’t have to mean that it is in being.

    When I refer to the unexpected… I speak of a place where bias in impossible. A place where the unexpected is that which cannot be prepared for, because it is not within the realm of being known. It might be “known” as something that could happen, but only by fantasy or extremity. Or maybe it is not known that such a thing could happen, nor even expected to come from such a place, so it catches off guard. This is not the quelling of expectation… but a place where expectation can’t be quelled. And in saying your expecting the unexpected makes it all expected, you blind yourself to that which will surprise. *bows* Don’t confuse quelling bias with expecting the unexpected. For that… that is a paradoxical thing.

    Ah… Now that is an interesting concept. Which breaks and burns my examples about aliens and murdering. Curious. So my saying: “just because I can explain how I’d go about killing a person doesn’t mean you should expect me to,” actually means you should expect it, since in your realm, the unexpected is something that cannot be prepared for. But that’s actually not true. It is possible to prepare for anything, if you have the resources.

    “Enough! Be quiet! I can’t hear myself think! I can’t hear my teeth chatter!"

    #98973
    Buddy J.
    @wordsmith

    @anne_the_noob14… Again, I believe your argument fails to logically debunk my own, and in and of itself fails to hold itself up. For you argue against a straw man, one put up by yourself it would seem.

    In dealing with the alien, or murderess Livi, I quote myself: It might be ‘“known” as something that could happen, but only by fantasy or extremity. Or maybe it is not known that such a thing could happen, nor even expected to come from such a place, so it catches off guard.’

    Note that I say, that which is known could happen. In the context, I clarify that I’m not saying it can’t… but that it would be unexpected, as it is fantasy or extremity. In both of these cases, I accept that it might happen, yet I don’t expect it. The direct implication is that these are outside the realm of experience.

    “It is possible to prepare for anything, if you have the resources.” -Livi

    This statement above assumes one has the resources needed to prepare. But where come the resources of knowledge to know to prepare for the unexpected. Yes, by chance something unexpected might come and be propelled by the fact that something is randomly there as a barrier. But the moment a barrier is put up to stop it, it becomes expected… to a certain degree. And the fact that it is repelled does not make it unexpected, but instead merely repelled.

    When speaking of preparedness… I speak of mental preparedness. The idea that our minds are ready to expect it. But… if the definition of something unexpected is that the mind is not prepared for it, how can one be prepared for that which cannot be prepared for. But if we’re ready to expect it… the unexpected is that which catches us off guard, or un-suspecting.

    Now. You also argue that with the proper resources allow for the preparation of anything. Which I would argue is true. But I point out that we don’t have all resources, and the idea of unexpected assumes we don’t have the resources to expect it, and are therefore not prepared for it. Unless by chance or providence, we have set something up to stop the unexpected… which would still catch us off guard, and has not to do with that which is unexpected.

    What you are arguing is the idea that the unexpected is something that can be expected, when really that merely changes the word unexpected to expected, and thus it is no longer unexpected, it is expected. The unexpected must provide with it some sort of extra “resource” as you put it before it can be expected. And to say that one expects the unexpected… is to say that omniscience, or even just full knowledge of all things possibly expected is on your side… which I highly doubt, and intend to use instead the unexpected to catch you off guard. It is hard. It is an art. But it is not impossible.

     

    Published author, student in writing, works with HazelGracePress.com

    #98974
    Buddy J.
    @wordsmith

    @ariella-newheart… though Livi and I are enjoying quite a debate… please don’t hesitate to step back in and interrupt us. *smiles* I greatly look forward to whatever you have to say. And if it comes down too it, Livi and I can even take our debate elsewhere, as it holds lesser precedence to true writing discussion.

    Published author, student in writing, works with HazelGracePress.com

    #98975
    Buddy J.
    @wordsmith

    And this goes for anyone else as well! PLEASE PLEASE DO JOIN US! (in writing conversation)

    Published author, student in writing, works with HazelGracePress.com

    #98978
    Livi Ryddle
    @anne_the_noob14

    *bows with a flourish* To this statement, I give audience, and agree to the utmost bit of it. I hereby renounce my self-granted, and undeserved, position of Grand Logician, and relinquish it to Wordsmith. All they who happen upon this post are witnesses of this somber moment. Thank you all. *leaves stage, giving Wordsmith back his spotlight*

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 11 months ago by Livi Ryddle.

    “Enough! Be quiet! I can’t hear myself think! I can’t hear my teeth chatter!"

    #98980
    Livi Ryddle
    @anne_the_noob14

    @wordsmith And it cut off the statement I referred to. I quote it here instead:

    “What you are arguing is the idea that the unexpected is something that can be expected, when really that merely changes the word unexpected to expected, and thus it is no longer unexpected, it is expected. The unexpected must provide with it some sort of extra “resource” as you put it before it can be expected. And to say that one expects the unexpected… is to say that omniscience, or even just full knowledge of all things possibly expected is on your side… which I highly doubt, and intend to use instead the unexpected to catch you off guard. It is hard. It is an art. But it is not impossible.”

    “Enough! Be quiet! I can’t hear myself think! I can’t hear my teeth chatter!"

    #98984
    Ariella Newheart
    @ariella-newheart

    @anne_the_noob14 @wordsmith You know what something unexpected is? Accidentally pressing the wrong button and refreshing your Story Embers page so that it deletes your current post. I never see it coming.

    Anyway, I’m not even going to attempt to understand all that. *gestures vaguely at the philosophical jargon in the preceding posts* I’m afraid I’m not the type to engage in such discussions. Though, if I really wanted to, I could write an article about the hidden danger of expecting the unexpected. I could potentially write that expecting the unexpected all the time can lead to paranoia because there’s always something unexpected to fear. The hard truth, I might say, is that you can’t do anything about the unexpected. Expecting the unexpected takes the matter out of the hands of the One who can actually expect the unexpected and do something about it.

    That’s just something I could say, of course, but I won’t. *shrugs* Sorry if that doesn’t meet your expectations.

    Anyway, wasn’t I supposed to post something from my WIP? I’ll try to do that now. 😛 *munches candy bar*

    Writer, illustrator, Parimi Alcan

    Check out my new blog! https://arbitraryfairy.wordpress.com/

    #98987
    Ariella Newheart
    @ariella-newheart

    Aah, here is. 🙂 @wordsmith

    Caedon cast one more look across the landscape. The early mists of morning rose from the ground and coiled around the shattered stones. But there was something more. Caedon’s eyes narrowed. In the misty shadows stood a tall figure in a black cloak. Caedon rubbed his eyes and looked again. The figure was moving deeper into the mist. At its side was the hulking form of a dragon. Both disappeared before Caedon could point them out to Artos.

    Had it been Yasmin the Watcher, or was he still dreaming? Caedon gritted his teeth. He had always wanted to have visions like Miri did, but not like this! Not where he couldn’t tell if he was awake or asleep!

    “Caedon!” The voice of his mother broke through the disorderly thoughts.

    Caedon turned around slowly. When he saw her walking steadily toward him, his vision blurred. Behind her came his father and Artos’ parents, but he barely saw them.

    “Caedon, you’re bleeding.” His mother’s gentle hands brushed his face. Caedon could not remember how he’d gotten hurt there. He raised his hands to touch hers, simply to know whether she was real or another ghost. When she saw the cuts on his palms, her face clouded. “Oh, Caedon…”

    “I’m sorry, Mother.” He dropped his hands and stood stiffly for further inspection, but she instead took him in her arms as if he’d been a little boy. He didn’t try to pull away. Over her shoulder he saw his father. He looked tired, Caedon realized. So very tired.

    Caedon didn’t cry. He was too big to cry. Besides, he was too numb inside to know how he really felt. Mother drew back and glanced at her husband. Caedon’s back stiffened as he waited.

    Father and son gazed at each other for several moments. At last the tall man nodded and motioned for Caedon to follow him. Caedon’s shoulders relaxed. He was safe, for the moment. He walked with his parents back to the camp, where Mother bandaged his hands and his siblings sat in fearful anticipation of Caedon’s punishment. Father had disappeared.

    Caedon waited in one of the tents, staring blankly at the canvas ceiling. Father was disappointed. Father was angry. Father would never trust Caedon again. He’d willfully disobeyed and now must suffer the consequences. Caedon wanted to make it right, but didn’t know how. He closed his eyes to stop the tears again. He was too old to cry.

    Writer, illustrator, Parimi Alcan

    Check out my new blog! https://arbitraryfairy.wordpress.com/

    #99021
    Livi Ryddle
    @anne_the_noob14

    @ariella-newheart Yay!! More Caedon! I love that snippet! But it’s so sad…. *cries* *wants to hug poor Caedon and give him cookies*

    Are we having candy?? May I have some? *reaches hesitantly towards the bag of Hershey’s candy bars at your feet*

    “Enough! Be quiet! I can’t hear myself think! I can’t hear my teeth chatter!"

    #99022
    Livi Ryddle
    @anne_the_noob14

    @ariella-newheart @wordsmith

    Ah yes… Part of my WIP… This, Buddy, wraps back around to our conversation yesterday about the novel outlining… Last night I actually started writing it. The outline, that is. I’m going to see if I can make the plans for a short story I was thinking about into a longer piece. Novel-sized. *shrugs* I won’t paste it here since it’s an outline and not an actual “part.” And other than that, I don’t actually have a WIP…

    *the many unfinished stories on my thumb-drive glare at me*

    ahem. Let me rephrase that. I don’t have a WIP that I’m actually working on actively (and I still haven’t rewritten Lucas’ character sheet thingy yet).

    “Enough! Be quiet! I can’t hear myself think! I can’t hear my teeth chatter!"

    #99043
    Buddy J.
    @wordsmith

    @anne_the_noob14… *bows* I am glad to be of the service of making my point clear. I hope nothing else was to be expected. 😉


    @ariella-newheart
    … Quite so. To expect the unexpected all the time is a losing battle. One that cannot be won, and thus must let slide be. We prepare what we can and trust God that He has us ready forefather He gives us, even unto death.

    On the note of your snippet… it’s quite lovely. The family dynamic has something similar to what one might feel in Little House On The Prairie (the books… which I attest are many eons better than the tv series), but with a fantasy feel to it. I feel like there’s a calm distance to the narrator… only maybe lacking a little cohesion. When dealing with omniscience in third person there’s a cohesion that needs to be followed, and the same when dealing with limited third. This is something I’ve been learning about over the past several months… and it’s one of the harder things to learn.

    As I read this, thinking about potential, I think you’d get the most beauty and power out of the scene if you remind the reader who’s point of view it is. If the narrator is omniscient, give him consistency that lets a flow transition between one character to another… something that just lets the reader soak everything in… if your narrator is limited, try to keep the narrator in the child’s mind. For instance, a child in this state probably wouldn’t refer to his father as “the tall man” and nor as his “mother’s husband”. It would probably just be “father”. This would be more directly and emotionally attached to the child as opposed to the scene.

    That being said, it’s a lovely piece you have here. And it’ll be interesting to see what it flowers into one of these days… if you so bring it there.

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 11 months ago by Buddy J..

    Published author, student in writing, works with HazelGracePress.com

    #99050
    Ariella Newheart
    @ariella-newheart

    @anne_the_noob14 Have all the candy you’d like. I brought enough for everyone. *grins*


    @wordsmith
    Thank you for your observation about cohesion! I think that’s what’s been bugging me about this WIP. I still have a lot to learn about writing in third person, it seems. Now to decide whether to make this story omniscient or limited. I’ll have to play around with it and see what works.

    Additionally, I’ve noticed that I slip into omniscience for certain small sections of my books. For example, at the end of chapters sometimes I’ll put “but what they didn’t know was…blah blah blah…” and sometimes I’ll throw in a few paragraphs, separated by a scene divider, that reveal something of significance that happened at a location that the character just left (e.g., a plant growing or a secret foe lurking in the shadows). In these instances, I provide information to the reader that won’t be revealed to the characters for some time. I have been told that this sort of shift is confusing to readers.

    What do you think of this tactic in writing?

    Writer, illustrator, Parimi Alcan

    Check out my new blog! https://arbitraryfairy.wordpress.com/

    #99069
    Buddy J.
    @wordsmith

    @ariella-newheart

    🙂 So glad to be of service…

    Now… I’m pretty sure that tactic makes the story omniscient… because an omniscient narrator looks in on the mind of the character, from the outside. This means he can actually do it with any character, though… this is hard to balance. An omniscient narrator can stick with primarily one character… but his descriptions are going to be as though he is on the outside, and whenever he’s looking in on the mind, he’s still on the outside. When the narrator is limited, he’s still writing from third person POV, but it’s inside the character’s mind, looking out. Always.

    So… if your narrator has the ability to go away from the POV character he or she is omniscient. BUT! In that case you want your descriptions and the way you handle the writing itself to be omniscient. If it turns to limited third… the jump back to omniscient is going to be confusing… even if only for a paragraph. There are probably ways to work around this, but I haven’t learned them.


    @daeus-lamb
    @cassandraia @briannastorm @jane-maree @gabriellepollack

    I tag this people in hopes that one of them knows the answer to how I believe your question might be presented…

    If the story is omniscient… the narrator has the freedom, and indeed should give information the character does not have (in varying degrees), lest it turn limited. But if you have a limited narrator… are the ways of adding segments in the story that indicate omniscient narrator who writes a limited POV, yet with in between sections that give a little extra info that the limited POV doesn’t provide? (is that the question, @ariella-newheart?)

     

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 11 months ago by Buddy J..

    Published author, student in writing, works with HazelGracePress.com

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