Brian (@obrian-of-the-surface-world ) and Noah (@noah-cochran ),
I’ll preface this by saying that I worked on this response with a really close friend of mine, Al Zapor. When I asked his thoughts on some things that were mentioned above, he said he had some opinions that he wanted to share. However, he’s waiting for forum account approval right now and can’t post quite yet. So, I’ll note when Al is speaking by “A:” and when I am speaking by “L:”. I will also note that this post grew way longer than we intended. (Sorry.)
A: Hello y’all!
L: Within a few days, Al will probably be able to post using his own forum account.
A: That’s the hope at least! At first, I had wanted to share my opinion about Brian’s interpretation of the text but decided I could wait to post that under my own account. Alternatively, I decided I couldn’t wait here! Lastly, do forgive me if I seem blunt and rude. Growing up in Mexico, I’ve come to hate the culture of sucking up to people, so I’ve countered that with being too straightforward for my own good. But onto the issue at hand!
L: First of all, thanks for your input, Noah! Glad you could join the discussion! Second, I’d like to be clear on what I mean when I say “I think of men and women as equals”, because I think both of you are misunderstanding me. I don’t want to do away with gender. However, I think there are gender roles that are hurtful. I don’t think that husbands are automatically the heads of their house and that wives must always defer to them because those are their set roles. (An interesting article about the concept that men are not the head of their wives is here.)
A: (Fascinating article, if I do say so myself).
L: Many women have been stuck in abusive relationships because they were told by church authorities to listen to their husbands. My mom and my grandmother both have had traumatic experiences in the church because of its enforcement of sexist gender roles. This is gender roles hurting people.
A: And the spreading and influence of the Gospel. Our actions could impact the future of Christianity on the world religion scale, but that’s an issue to discuss later.
L: And these are the sort of gender roles I would like to get rid of so that men and women can better work together for His Kingdom.
A: Meanwhile, women who point these things out are told they are pagan unbelievers. For example, within the SBC, looking at the report that came out last month, women who acknowledged and revealed the sexual misconduct in the Church were accused of essentially being sent and used by the Enemy.
A: Also, on the whole topic of “male role-models”, I wanna just share some personal experience. In my own life and Spiritual journey, yes I have had male role-models. However, the people that have impacted me the most are my mother, an aunt, my sister, and my friends who happen to be girls. Why? Because God can use anyone, regardless of gender, to impact, instruct, and mold us into who He wants us to be. I can know about manhood and be masculine regardless of the reproductive system of those who God has placed in my life. Speaking of masculinity, Brian, you seem to have a slightly warped perspective of Biblical masculinity. You insinuate that to be masculine, a man must be constantly tough, competitive, and driven to please women (though it may seem shocking to you, not every man is straight, and they aren’t any less “manly” or “men” than every other man. Plus, what would they be? You seem to think that agender, non-binary, and trans folks don’t exist. But anyway, back to the topic at hand). Let’s look at the epitome of a masculine man in the Bible, one who is described as “a man after God’s own Heart”: King David. Yes, he exhibited traits you saciate over and are quick to call masculine, such as marching with bravery and courage into war, leading Israel, and swooning multiple women, regardless of the morality of some of those relationships. Yet, he also exhibited traits that you would also label as “effeminate” and “pagan moronic cruelties”. He was compassionate, he was vulnerable (which in my opinion, is one of the antithesis of “toughness”), and he laid in meadows creating art. This is Biblical masculinity. As Noah already pointed out, true masculinity isn’t the perverted American-ized masculinity that Christians so often endorse, one filled with guns, football, beer (?), and barbeque. It can include this “toughness” and bravery, but it’s paired with compassion, love, and selflessness. Once again, credit to Noah for this! Just reworded his already excellent statement.
A:
There are silly women. Get over it. There are stupid men. You might as well get over that too.
Women are equal and have opinions just as valid as your own. Get over it. Not every man lines up with your view of perfect masculinity. You might as well get over that too.
L: Thank you, Al.
A:
I will not pander or soft-sell the scripture just to tip-toe over sensitivities that may be more modern-cultural acquired than arise from sincere humble study of the Word.
Lonie was not pandering or soft-selling Scripture or calling for this to be done. Instead, she was pointing out and saying that it is incorrect to use Scripture to defend sexist and misogynistic gender roles, especially when Christianity is a religion of equality, love for all, and salvation for all. Once again, Brian, when you insinuate that, in spite of all this, God did not create the genders equal, you only hurt more people and you risk disillusioning more souls and damaging Christianity’s reputation. Also, you are literally misinterpreting and misusing Scripture to push your personal beliefs on gender roles. You ignore Christ’s example of viewing and valuing women as equals, which can be seen throughout Scripture (ie, His interaction with the Samaritan Woman or His relationship with His mother and Mary Magdalene). But right, Lonie is the one misusing Scripture. Projection much?
L: Again, thank you, Al.
A: This one is slightly more nuanced but
Guys want to be tough.
Going back to my rant on masculinity. Honestly, outside of sports, no, not really. I don’t want to fight, go to war, constantly “assert my dominance to swoon the ladies”. I want to show compassion, care, love, service, much like Christ did.
L: I think what Al is trying to say is that Brian, you are making generalizations and stating them as fact.
A: Yeah. Just in my own way of droning on and on and on XD. But yes, and in my opinion, these generalizations are also incredibly erroneous.
L:
I am not responsible for how you “feel” about my words. Feelings are fickle and transitory. They will pass. What you choose to feel right now is your choice too.
I have to disagree here. Over and over again in the Bible the tongue is referred to as something that does damage (a fire, a sword), and therefore must be controlled. I don’t think it is my fault for being mildly offended by words that dismiss my opinions and beliefs while accusing me of things I didn’t say. Some tongue-controlling may be in order here.
A: This is very true! Honestly, tongue-control for the three of us lol. We must conduct ourselves and use our speech in a way that glorifies God, and well, instigating hate and inequality, frankly, does not glorify God.
A: To be blunt, completely honest, and a tad rude with you, Brian, you’re taking a metaphor, interpreting it literally, using it to defend sexism and misogyny, and then are ranting and defending yourself when Lonie called you out for it. You then launched some pretty personal attacks on her by saying that her view of masculinity must’ve been thwarted by some bad experiences, or saying she has a problem with God. She just has a problem with people using Scripture to defend hate. You walked into a conversation about “mama’s boy” characters, which I felt was perfectly fine, productive, respectful, and not derogatory in the least, to promote what is, well, borderline toxic masculinity. Be better, souls are on the line.
L: Yeah, can we go back to the main point, here? I was just trying to correct what I saw as a misuse of Scripture. Brian, you completely ignored one of my points and proceeded to explain gender roles to me.
A: Yeah, all Lonie was doing was pointing out how you took a metaphor about the Spiritual Realm literally. Christ was a very metaphorical speaker and this sets a bad precedence. Just remember to be extra careful, we’re dealing with the Word of God.
L: Once again, thanks for the discussion, you guys. 🙂
Cheers.
A: Yeah, thanks for including me, Lonie! It’s been fun to read the entire thread and weigh in on this discussion! I’m looking forward to reading y’all’s responses (if y’all have any)! God Bless!
