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Reply To: Male characters question

Forums Fiction Characters Male characters question Reply To: Male characters question

#150871
Cathy
@this-is-not-an-alien

*Me: right before I fall asleep after my post* I better add I agree completely I just wanted to add another perspective to — *glances over forum* — encourage more thought provoking discussion…

It is possible I may have started something again.

I had decided not to comment on this, but I can’t very well refuse a tag from Cathy. 🙃

Absolutely you cannot! Now how goes with you in life?

🙂☕

I would say that the main differentiation that the bible (and thus God) gives men and women, are their roles. For instance, men were command to be leaders and provide for the home, women were commanded to tend the home and be industrious (tangent: I hate the stigma that claims the phrase ‘tend the home’ puts women in a boring, subservient place of caring for children and sweeping floors. That couldn’t be further from the truth).  There is more to say on this, but I’ll stop there.

This is very true and everyone can agree on the generalities, but it’s very hard to pinpoint an exact emotional differentiations or perhaps attitude and priorities…or maybe what we really debate is exactly how a person is allowed to EXPRESS their masculinity/femininity. I do agree the man is the head of the house and the woman tends the home, and I think that’s the core of it, but I absolutely agree with @calidris society is so into the OUTWARD appearance and interests that we forget what really matters. How you treat fellow human beings is much more important than what you like or how strong you are. But there’s so many ways to express this and it’s very difficult to discern as a universal.

Finally, I would like to comment on the whole ‘men holding a door open for women’ thing. While men should be helpers and protectors of women, and be willing to sacrifice for them, I think that this mindset often causes people to miss the point. Women should be helpers and sacrifice their desire or time (or seat for that matter) as much as the next person. We are all commanded to help others and put others first, regardless of their sex.

On this topic I’d like to note 2 big things.

1.       For me, if I’m in a group of girls and there’s less seats than people, we’ll all inevitably get into a fuss of offering the seats to each other until somebody wins the argument and forces everybody else to sit. If a buncha guys get together they’ll all be racing to get the seats and playful shoving will inevitably ensue. If I’m in a group of guys and there’s a limited number of seats I’m gonna deck anybody who tries to beat me to the seat coz I’ll be bullied coz I’m the female in a pack of males and I’d need to assert dominance to accepted into the pack. Conversely if there was another girl there I’d deck anybody who tried to take the seat first and give it to her to assert I’ll be her protector if the males won’t.

So, personally, if a guy provides a seat for me this gives me the assurance that I can depend on him to defend me without having to prove I’m stronger than every guy and all of them attacking at once. Because being a woman around guys means you don’t just have to live up to both girl standards and guys standards but you also have to be tougher than all of them together because they’ll all pick on you at once until you assert dominance. Buuut-

2.       That one way-older-than-me dude from church who was interested in me when I was thirteen would’ve absolutely used the gentleman role to his advantage in that situation to push me into a seated position which would put me at a huge fighting disadvantage and a psychological sense of subservience.

So traditional gestures of gentlemenship provide security to females but are very easy to abuse as well especially if the woman in question is unfamiliar with men and just perceives the nice action that makes them feel safe. Because of course, GENERALLY, women are less muscular and more interested in being loved than respected so not as likely to quite as assertive, but I trust by now it’s obvious I don’t experience any such deficiency of assertiveness ;P (My mom was watching Sense and Sensibility; read everything in an ridiculously exaggerated sophisticated voice. For full effect.)

But I will say it was something of a learned trait, like picking locks 😉

So, I do appreciate traditional chivalry a great deal but it’s so susceptible to abuse that I don’t trust a “gentleman” if he’s too nice.

How’s your life going?

I LIVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lol, I’ve been insanely busy with assignments but they’re super fun! I’ve got to present a website layout today based off an established website I found, I was hoping to have time to add the interactions to it but I’ll have to settle for just the visuals for now but I might just be able to make my own website by the end of the month. I’ve been online this whole time so I never got my student ID lol and last week we were trying to get it on campus but their camera that was connected to their whole system broke and they couldn’t do anything with any other camera and the only other way to get a student ID is to go to the really dangerous campus so I have to wait until next semester AGAIN to get my ID!

But that’s ok coz all the doors are unlocked by class (which my professor HATES, he would really like a lot better security) and like I can pick locks so it’s all the same to me.

I also doodled in class but no one caught me coz that one was online
(In my defense, it was a review of last semester InDesign work…with critiques!)

And I gotta do a 60 second no dialogue video for one class and I can’t decide whether I’m gonna do one with a T-rex trying to catch goldfish but he falls in and drowns coz his arms are too small to pull him out of the fishtank or a quick Pinterest-style tutorial on getting out of duct tape and/or zipties. I hope I have everything I need to do the T-rex one so I can avoid the inevitable show-my-face-online which my mom’d be totally ok with for school but would love it if I can avoid it.

And I’m also working on my rap voice, my sister says I’m better at rapping than doing the glassy-pretty style I’m after simply because I struggle with it! But anyway, my sis said I never missed a note in that song In the End (judge my voice I double dog dare you!!!) so I’m recording and cleaning my audio and then figure out how to do music behind it, I’m still really bad with the instrumentals lol. And this is a stupid project to start coz I’m still cleaning Scarborough Fair for Rose’s prizes. But the higher notes get so messy wherever I set my camera mic. OH LOL and I got into a C.S. Lewis writing contest and I did two Silly Songs to motivate my teammates (…don’t ask. But we won 😝👌 )

But how have you been fairing? And don’t you dare say something blasé like “college is easy once you get used to it”!

I may need to clarify something that often gets misunderstood. I very much agree with Noah (@noah-cochran) with the biblical standard is God’s design that works to the optimization of how He created the family to function. I think there is a problem sometimes in how we as opposite genders treat each other with less respect and love than we ought to.  Both men and women have certain natural propensities, however, that, by no means, implies that they do not have shared interests that might be relegated traditionally to one gender or another. Some girls are rough and tumble, and may work every bit as hard in manual labor in dirt and grime as any man, but that does not diminish their femininity.  Women often worked the fields alongside the men.  Remember the story of Ruth?  Look at the industry and skill of the attributes of the Proverbs 31 woman.

This is so true, it seems like it’s always an us v them syndrome with genders, either “proving” that girls can do just as many “manly” activities as guys who “proving” “women’s stuff” is more powerful but all this doesn’t quantify someone’s value, it’s just stupid!!

Many might find her skills far exceed that of what might have been once considered a “traditional role”, but she is learned, can assess the value of a field, has sharp merchant skills, has deft and honed craftsmanship in her production and appears to be such a compliment to her husband that the men of the city recognize her value, and hold her husband in high-respect enough to set in prominence at the gate of the city, because of her.  She is praised as every bit his equal, and brings him honor and respect because of the kind of reputation she has and her management skill.

That’s true, although I’ve seen it taken advantage of a lot to “give her guy all the credit” instead, but almost any good can be twisted into something toxic. It’s important for both sides to respect the other and that’s basically the end of it I guess, the rest is just how individuals express it.

A female might often have a sense of caution and feeling about a person, that her husband might be considering doing business with, and that sense of what the relationship with that person portends might serve her husband well to heed her cautions.  Even Pilate’s wife demonstrated that sense when her husband was debating about what to do with Jesus. God intends both men and women to live with each other in harmony, not as competitors. God does hold each gender accountable for certain roles which He put upon them. God expects the male to be the physical protector in the home and occupy the defense role for those under his care.  Jesus clearly refers to this role when He refers to the “strong man” in the following instances:

Of course, we females have a far superior emotional intelligence on average than males. LOL JK!

But it is a propensity for women to be more likely to value reading emotions more than men with “traditional roles”

In any case, Biblically the male role is more provider and the female role caretaker. There’s a LOT we associate with those roles that are just norms and a lot that are just stupid outward-focused expectations.

God leaves us so much freedom to express this care in our own unique God-given way but we’re so prone to overcomplicating it and twisting it into something impossible and unreasonable. I would say an “effeminate male” would be one that doesn’t treat women with care and respect and the rest is just detail, not really as relevant.

A woman can either grant her husband the respected role of authority in the home, or undermine it. She affirms his role as an act of respect.  He affirms her as the cherished bride whom he will lay down his life for out of love and appreciation for her.  They belong to each other in oneness as God joins them in matrimony, as long as they defer to Christ as the example they strive to honor first and foremost.  This family forms the basis for mutual nuturing and the giving of each to the innate needs of the other. To love his wife as his own body, the man must seek her best.  The courtship depicted in the Song of Solomon shows the interplay of mutual love within the roles of each gender. Both honor each other in feeling secure in mutual trust enough to confide in one another. I think the worldly views of modernism have disrupted God’s design by pitting genders against one another.  Satan is the dissembler and wants homes broken, and therefore society to crumble because it no longer has foundational adhesion. A  mother is as essential as a father for a child’s upbringing.  There is a balance that is needed.  A daughter needs to know what kind of man will treat her with the selfless love she needs to understand what she should seek in a prospective future mate.  A young boy needs to learn how to defer and protect a woman, as he witnesses how his father treats his mother, so that he can model that behavior when he looks for a mate.  From his mother, he needs to learn how she responds differently from how his father responds to life circumstances so that he can live with his future wife with an understanding that allows for differences in perspective from his own thinking. Personalities differ from person to person, and these personality differences are too often relegated to definitions categorized by gender by mankind’s assumptions rather than God’s.

I absolutely agree with this, it is the husband’s role to be the authority in the house, not to lord it but a healthy family needs the man to step up and set standards and example. I’ve seen so much breakdown from the moms doing all the childrearing and the dads just passively watching and going with the whole “do whatever your mom says” without any investment in whatever his kids are doing.

It’s just so important for BOTH parents to be a part of their kids’ lives and even if both parents communicate well it’s not that great when everything to dad about his kids are coming 2nd hand from mom so none of the kids really get to know their dad and it’s not well balanced communication or authority and respect.

*midrant I’m trying to figure why I know Bible verses condemning effeminate males but none on masculine females…did I miss those verses or is it just plain lawful for the woman to take up that role if there’s no guy around to do it?*

But yeah, BOTH parents need to be an active part of the family and that’s one thing that makes homosexual co-living commitments problematic in child rearing. Both genders are really important and complimentary to each other. But there’s just a HUGE difference between personality and gender and that’s so overlooked.

I absolutely loathe the biological males entering women’s sports to take unfair advantage of female competitors.  I loathe the gender confusion promulgated by sexual perverts attempting to switch their genders. I loathe these cross-dressing males gaining access to young children to normalize their perversion under the guise of reading storybooks.  These practices are detestable in God’s eyes, and I will not back down from that assertion.

I mean, I don’t mind doing sports with guys coz it’s not really an unfair advantage to me, girls tend to be quicker and better with tactics so that balances out the guys tend to be stronger. The big problem I’d worry about a little is guys tend to be more focused on winning while girls tend to be more interested in enjoying the game but that balances out just fine when we both respect each other’s boundaries like my little brother and I singing Disney songs while dualling with wooden swords every so often he’ll get excited and I gotta remind him not to wack so hard and he immediately apologizes and sometimes he’ll nick me and I go feral and he’ll gotta remind me not to wack so hard, but I trust him so much he’s so respectful of me as a person and supportive of me, with both my girly and rough-‘n-tumble interests and that’s the standard for how I expect guys to treat me now.

But I don’t actually know a lot about “women’s sports” so…I actually can’t have a really good opinion of that until I know more about those sports…?

Perversions with trans and sexuality and especially society’s “solutions” to it is just horrific. So many people take advantage of the “claim to be any gender and everybody has to let you” to have guys in girls’ bathrooms who decide to be trans AFTER THE FACT! And special treatment for politics’ sake on those acts…normalization of perversion and children being told the “solution” to be a little different from what they expect their gender to act is to try another gender is just sick!!!

Instead of telling people they can be themselves even if they don’t fit the typical traits associated with their gender society tells they must obvious change gender to conform to expectations!!!!

I think women do need to learn to defend themselves but whatever means are necessary for we live in a brutal and fallen world.  I have no patience for effeminate males, and I am wholly disgusted by their behaviors, for I look upon them as cowards, and irresponsible with regard to the roles God has called them too. I believe a male should protect females, for they are essential to our survival as a society and a species, under God’s order.  I think a woman should have confidence in her husband’s commitment to safeguarding her person, and that she knows that he will do his utmost to keep her and their children from harm. I think a man is obligated to be obedient to hear from God daily, to seek His direction for the protection of his home, and to operate in accordance with a self-sacrificial love for those he is charged to protect. I believe a male who strikes a woman, is no man at all and should be scorned by male society and punished for his actions. Masculinity is not defined by women or by men themselves, but by the nature and character of what God sets before them in the example of his son.  Christ gave His life as a ransom for His bride.

AMEN.

I agree with everything you guys are saying, but I do have a few thoughts I would love to add.  One thing that I’ve noticed in some Christian circles is that there’s a focus on masculinity as our society defines it, but not as it’s defined in the Bible.  I have had experiences with men who many Christians would define as extremely masculine by worldly standards (say, loves guns and football), but who neglect some of the masculine roles defined in the Bible.  By contrast, there could be a man who loves shopping for clothes and cake decorating, but who takes on the masculine roles defined in the Bible.  However, I think there are a lot of Christians who would still say that the first man is more masculine just because of his outward appearance and interests.  It’s something that I’m still trying to unlearn myself, if I’m going to be completely honest.  Some of the Christian men that I looked up to growing up had an extremely narrow, inaccurate, and often toxic idea of what masculinity is, and it really did damage my perception of both marriage and masculinity.  It wasn’t until the past couple of years that God started to heal those wounds and show me that the things I saw were not good representations of Biblical masculinity.

LOUDER FOR THE PEOPLE IN THE BACK!!!!!!

🙂

ugghhhh I’m neurodivergent too and I COMPLETELY understand what you’re talking about.  It’s always frustrated me when people talked about how girls think, because that rarely applied to me and made me feel uncomfortable because I didn’t match that perception.  It’s so incredibly isolating too.  I’m not discounting these experiences for other girls, but I think it’s dangerous to solely lean on generalizations instead of getting to know a person for who they really are. I never knew that about Ehud and Rosario, but I can totally see it.  I’m currently working on a genderflipped Snow White retelling, and there’s a little bit of a similar dynamic.  Except, the girl is a 5’3″ powerhouse and “Snow White” himself is a gentle 6’5″ giant xD But it’s interesting, even with the flipped dynamic you can still very much see the masculine and feminine roles.  I think Skia is partially attracted to Basil because he’s the first person who sees her as worthy of protection (they’re both super soldiers being raised in a lab, and her division is a failed experiment of sorts, which is why she never grew past 5’3″).  And I’ve noticed that Basil is always physically putting himself in between Skia and the lab staff, I think in an effort to protect her from the harm that was done to him.  It makes me very soft :’)

Amen amen and amen! It was SO hard for me to come to terms with both my traditionally feminine and traditionally masculine traits because I felt like accepting one meant rejecting the other and the two pieces of me were severed in two by criticism and expectations even by people who really do love me and wanted what was best for me.

Lol ikr!?! They’ve been so fun!!

Oh sweet!!! I love genderflipped retelling and fairytale retellings I will read that as soon as you write it!!!!!

That is soo true, however much I flip gender traits they always still gravitate to that role and that’s such a huge thing for me because exploring that with my characters really helped me overcome a lot of my gender dysphoria and understand my value as a person and as a woman.

Amen to everything you said there! Guns, sports, strength, physical protection, patriotism, they are all glorified in a quite repugnant way. While physical protection of one’s wife and family is important and ordered by the bible, men seem to think the phrase ‘lay down one’s life’ only refers to taking the bullet, and then proceed to ignore what its much more relevant meaning is: meekness and sacrificing one’s wishes for others, humbleness. I just recently heard a fantastic sermon on what a biblical man is, and it runs along the lines of what you said. So once again, amen!

SAY IT AGAIN FOR IDIOTS WHO CAN’T TAKE A REALITY CHECK!!!!!!!!!!!

To be a light to the world you must shine in the darkness.

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