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Reply To: Will you have me back? Pretty Please?

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#144803
Noah Cochran
@noah-cochran

@erynne

My attractiveness still exceeds yours by a mile.

Fine, fine, you may hold the stage.

If all were chosen what would be the point of imperfect life here on earth?

I’m a little confused by this, would clarify what you mean?

My step dad’s favorite thing to show to people who don’t believe in predestination is to lay on the ground and “die” then he says to save yourself. The person is then normally speechless because you can’t save yourself without God which is exactly what I believe. You can’t save yourself and it isn’t your choice.

Exactly. A dead person has no ability to even see or feel the spirit of life, let alone attain it. Here’s one question for ya though (and you can ask your parents if you’re unsure): Do you believe that all the elect/chosen will continue in good works their whole lives? In other words, do you believe in the perseverance of the saints? I believe in the preservation of the saints, meaning that all God saved will get to heave no matter what, but perseverance entails that all the elect and born again will act in a certain level of goodness their whole lives. Which do you believe, perseverance or preservation


@rose-colored-fancy

I read it somewhere and I haven’t been able to un-hear it, so I must curse you with it as well.

I am suitably cursed.

I’m working on not being a chicken

Listen, a woman with the fighting skills you have cannot be a chicken, just think about yourself as a warrior duchess and put on a pristine look everytime your in a social situation, and you’ll be fine.

If you think that’s funny, wait till you hear the full story. Sit back and watch the world burn as I tell you a little tale called “The Dutch child benefits scandal”

O_O And  the PM got re-elected? I’m torn between disdainful disgust and hilarity. xD

Okayyy, I’m jumping in here!

I knew this was going to happen. xD And now that you’ve said all that I just have to respond. So excuse me while I go get my bible. 😏

If God chose who would be saved and who wouldn’t beforehand, why try? If salvation is already decided, what’s the point of believing? You’re either saved or you aren’t. If you’re already saved, regardless of what you do, why follow His commandments? Are you allowed to sin?

I’ll start with this question, since it’s the easiest to answer (and a very common one that I’ve heard asked). There are three reasons what should follow God’s commandments and spread His word:

Reason 1: If I was on a hike, and I had taken the wrong, foolhardy path, and at the end of that path I fell off the cliff–but, right as I was falling, a man caught me. I look up and the man is my most hated enemy. Instead of dropping me to my death, however, the man saves me and hauls me back up onto the ground of safety. That’s just an analogy (that isn’t perfect), but if a scenario like that happened to you, wouldn’t you want to honor that person and do as they ask? In other words, we know that we owe are salvation to God sending His son to suffer and die for us, and because of that, we should want to glorify Him, honor Him, and strive to obey His word (the bible). Personally, I think this reason is good enough on its own, but the next to reasons are more tangible, so let’s get to them.

Reason 2: In Proverbs 11:30 it says: “The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise.” There are similar passages in the New Testament, and they all mean the same thing: This winning of souls is not saving people eternally (only God has the supernatural power to do that), this is the spreading of the good news which can save people in a timely sense. I’m a guy who loves analogies, so here’s one I’ve heard from at least a couple different elders explaining this topic:

If there was man with a extremely massive debt of money to the bank, he would be under inexpressible strain, and mental anguish as he labored in vain to pay it off. One day, another mystery man came and paid off the entire debt–but, he didn’t tell the other man what he had done, instead, mystery man wrote down what he had done and gave that account of his actions to a few people at the bank. Now, if the bank were not to tell the man that his debt had been paid, that man would keep working to pay off his debt, and he would still be under much strain and mental anguish–even though (and here’s the important part), his debt had already  been paid. Now, if the people at the bank were to read the account of the mystery man’s actions, and then tell that good news to the man with the debt, that man would be free from the bondage of the debt he thought he was under.

I hope that analogy was understandable, but here’s what it means: spreading the good news of the gospel doesn’t save people eternally/born them again (aka, pay off their debt), on the mystery man (aka, God) can do that. However, we can save souls in a timely sense by saving the people who God elected and born again from their ignorance. We can tell them the good news, and open their eyes to our glorious future. I’ve heard so many stories of people that have heard this good news, and a great bondage has been lifted from their shoulders. Did that make any sense?

Reason 3: In the bible, God tells us that though life will be hard and we will go through persecuations and tribulations, if we obey His word and try to bear the fruits of the Spirit, then we will be blessed during our lives (not given eternal life, we have to be born again to bear fruits of the Spirit at all, I’ll elucidate on that momentarily). Blessed spiritually for sure, but sometimes even blessed in a physical, earthly sense.

As for Romans 9, Esau deliberately disobeyed God with no (documented) signs of repentance, while Jacob always turned back to Him. Imo, if Esau had chosen to obey and love God with his whole heart, that verse wouldn’t exist, and entirety of history would look different.

Personally, from what I read in the bible, I always thought that Esau seemed like a better person outwardly than Jacob. But that is moot, let me try to explain why the concept of “accept+obey+love = eternal salvation” is unbiblical.

In 1 Cor. 2:14 it says “But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”

This is the concept of Total Depravity/having no spiritual life, being completely wicked. When Adam fell, all humanity fell with him (original sin), and now (without God anyway), we are all in that state talked about in the verse above (see Romans 8:1-8, Romans 3: 9-20, for more verses saying the same things). This kinda ties into Erynne’s example of the dead man. People who are spiritually dead, cannot even consider God, accept God, obey God, in fact, they hate God. They hate even the concept of God. This used to be us, used to be me. At one point in my life (or maybe in my mother’s womb), I was like that, completely unable to help myself. Totally unable to receive the things of the Spirit of God.

But. (the word “but” in the bible is glorious, it is what saves us over and over again)

“But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)” (Eph. 2: 4-5)

The verses proceeding that in Eph. 2:1-3, were talking about how we used to be wicked, dead, sinners (similar to the Corinthians verse above). And now it says that God saved us. We were dead, unable to receive the things of God, and now He saved us with supernatural power. He borned us again, something we could never do on our own. In the following verses, Eph. 2: 8-9, it says: “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.”

I really can’t make it much clear than those original words inspired by God. It was through His faith, not our faith (as it says in the verse), it was through His works, not our works (and works include the act of Accepting God and Loving God).

After that happens, we can start loving God, obeying His word, and spreading the good news (however, and this ties into my statement earlier, if we’re born again, but haven’t heard the gospel preached, haven’t heard what God has done for us, what is pulling at our hearts after being born again, than it is a timely salvation for us to hear the gospel).

One more example (because, ya know, I just gotta xD ), and this example ties back into that first verse from Corinthians. If there were two women lost in the woods. A radio tower a few miles away was sending out signals to lead them to safety (to deliverance, aka, timely/temporal salvation), but neither of them had radios, so neither of them picked up the signal. Then, the heaven’s opened up, and one of the women was dropped a radio. All the sudden, that woman could now hear the signal that was giving her the good news, that safety was not far away. It was telling her the way to get out of the lost woods she was in. That is how being born again is.

People without the radios = totally depraved, not born again (which means they’re either not born again yet, or that they’re not the elect and will never be born again), completely evil

Radio signal = the good news of the gospel that only people with radios can hear. This news shows people the truth, what God has done for them.

People with radios =  people that have already been saved eternally and born again

The skies opening up = God’s supernatural power and love that saves us eternally

Why God chose to elect some and not others, we will never know completely. But that’s not the questions we should ask. The question we should be asking is “why would God pick anyone at all? why would He pick me? I/we hated Him with the deepest level of hatred ever known, so why pick us at all?” That is the mystery of God’s love. I do believe, however, that the vast majority of humankind will be in heaven/are the elect (there are verses that support that, but I won’t go into that right now).

I’m so sorry. xD I knew that was going to turn into something massive, but I couldn’t stop typing. Hopefully I was at least coherent.

Well, I blame it on you two, Erynne and Rose, you started me on this. That’s my excuse anyway. xD

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