Reply To: New Discussion Threat For Theological Debate

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Noah Cochran

If I create a story and characters and I cause one character to steal from another, or cause one to murder another, is it sin for me to cause those characters to sin? No, because I created the thing stolen, I created the characters’ lives, and therefore I have authority to manage those creations as I know will shape the story to its proper end.

No offense, but that analogy isn’t even slightly relevant. xD You are making up a fictional  story, humanity is a real  story. The bible calls God Holy and Sanctified, those words mean completely without sin, separate from sin. If God is not under the moral law and can sin, then why would it say that He is holy and sanctified? The bible says God hates sin and that He commands us not to commit sin, but then you say that he causes us to sin on a daily basis? That would make God a liar and hypocrite which He cannot be.

When fate doctrine such as this is taught, it can take away the will of people to even try to do good (not always, but sometimes). I mean, if I believe everything I did today was already predetermined by God, then I would do whatever I thought would make me happiest, because it’s going to happen anyway right? This is a side note that is not needed to prove my point, but it’s something to consider.

Now let me make two things clear: One, God can cause evil, not wickedness evil, but destructive evil (like wiping out an entire country if it please Him). That is not sin, the Lord gives, the Lord takes away. But if he were to cause me to murder my neighbor because I hated the fellow, that would be wicked evilness, and God would not longer be Holy or Sanctified. Secondly, God does work providence, which means he can supernaturally intervene at anytime, and force someone to do something, or not to do something. We cannot always know when He does this, but I believe He does it often. Providence is not Predestination, the two are different. If I didn’t make way clear, just ask. 🙂

Now to your list of verses. I read over several and…yeah, none of them are talking about anything like absolute predestination. I’ll mention a few. Romans  9 is talking about the predestination of the elect to heaven.  Philippians 2:13 is clearly talking about the spirit of God convicting us to do good works and serve him (I really can’t see where you got absolutism from this one xD). 1 Kings 18:37 (and possibly Rev. 17:17 as well, the context in Rev. is very important and I didn’t read the surrounding voices) and many of the other OT verses are talking about God supernaturally intervening and using humans as he pleases (like the verse where it says he hardens pharaohs heart), this does not even slightly infer that fate and absolutism exists. Also, known of these verses even use the verse predestination (except Romans 9 where it is talking about predestination to heaven, the kind of predestination I believe in). Matt. 10:29 means that God is with his children, and He knows everything that happens (see the context of persecution and hairs on the head in verses 28&30). God knows all and can intervene and change any event, and yet are actions are not fate, they are not predetermined.

As for perseverance(P), that is the way I thought you were define it, so we’re on the same page. I’ll cover both that and irresistible grace at the same time since you’re taking them down pretty much the same path. I can’t find anywhere in the bible that says the elect and called/born again will seek to please God and believe in His word their whole lives (which is essentially what you’re saying between your definitions of IG and P). In regard to P, we in fact see quite the opposite. Examples of people who are obviously born again believers and yet they quit believing or quit following the statutes of God (Solomon for example). We know the elect will be born again, and we know that the spirit will prompt them to good works and to believe, otherwise, they might never believe their whole lives. Frankly, your reasoning for how the African man is following and believing the bible is just not adequate, or even partly adequate. Yes, he will feel the spirit inside of him, but no, he will not be a true believer without hearing the gospel preached and reading the bible and  believing (because he doesn’t have to belief, he might harden his heart, no where in the bible does it say that all the born again will believe, it just says that believing is evidence that they are born again, just because the human eye doesn’t pick up the evidence doesn’t mean something hasn’t happened, in fact, the mindset of “I won’t believe that they are born again unless I see evidence of belief, is quite arrogant. If we see absolutely no evidence of good works or belief the person’s entire life does that mean that they weren’t the elect? Probably, but we are not omnipresent, and to pretend we can see all the good and bad works in someone’s life is conceited thought).

Believers still absolutely struggle with sin and fail time and time again to listen to the Spirit’s prompting.

Born again elect, and born again elect believers are two different things (unless of course you are saying the spirit/new man in them believes, but I’m assuming you mean they believers are people who believe in the bible and God outwardly). Born again elect are anyone that God has born again, and these people are often ignorant or stubborn unbelievers. Born again outward believers are people that have had access to the gospel and now believe in what God has done for them, and what He will do for them. Christian  outward believers are those who believe in the the gospel, and try to follow God’s statutes. I bring this up because just the fact that someone believes doesn’t mean they are trying to do good and follow God’s moral law. This is obvious everywhere in the so called “christian” world today.

Hope I’m being coherent enough. xD

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