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Reply To: New Discussion Threat For Theological Debate

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#142539
Noah Cochran
@noah-cochran

@r-m-archer and @this-is-not-an-alien (because I don’t want Cathy to take my explanation wrongly xD)

We do good works not to earn a place in this kingdom, but to reflect our place in it.

Let me clarify before you take my words in the opposite direction I intended. xD Belief and good works are indeed evidence (or reflection as you used) that we are born again, that we are the elect, that we are bound for the ultimate end of heaven. Now, before I get to the KoH, let me clarify my points, because I articulated them atrociously. What do good works and believing do for us in this life? They allow us to feel the presence and blessings of God (enjoy His grace), and they glorify Him. Do you agree with me there Archer?

As for the KoH, I must admit, it is hard to draw exact lines on what it is. I will say this though, if you are in the KoH, you are enjoying the grace and closeness of God, and you cannot be sinning (one very common way to be in the KoH or press into as some would say is to be in church service, without sin of course). I kinda mixed up two different concepts, so I probably shouldn’t have even brought up the KoH.

I disagree that we don’t know why He created us. He created us for fellowship with Him, to be like Him. We were intentionally created in His image to steward the Earth He created and walk in communion with Him.

Yes, He created man/Adam to be a steward, but why create the Earth in the first place? One reason that I already mentioned is for His glory and praise, but other than that, we cannot know the mind of God. He did not need us, and thus his creation of us was totally unnecessary, the only thing we know is that He desire’s our praise.

Do you have any particular references? I’m not trying to be difficult, and I’m not sure that I disagree with you, it’s just something I’d like to look at further so I figured I’d ask if you have any easy references. But if not, I can certainly look into it myself.

Okay, so I’m gonna kinda concede a point here. Other than Jesus being the one to lead the Lord’s Supper and Foot Washing (which are two ordiances that are explicitly prescribed to be done by all Christians), there are not other places that clearly say ministers should oversee those ordiances. However, we do read that all things should be done decently and in order (1 Cor. 14:40), and that ministers are to be overseers (Acts 20:28), and taking both of those things together, I believe that elders/bishops should be the ones administering those ordiances. Can it be done without them in an orderly and decent way? Possibly, but I still believe that to keep things running properly and ideally, ministers should be the ones to do it. @rusted-knight is welcome to bring other verse if he finds any.

As for water Baptism, we clearly see that the bible teaches and shows through numerous examples that it is done (and to be done) by ordained Elders or Bishops, and no one else. You probably already know the many examples of this (such as Philip, who was at that time a elder, not a deacon), so I won’t start listing them.

Two questions about absolute predestination: First, if I sin, and God predestined that it would happen, He is then causing me to sin, so thus He would be sinning (even if I am still responsible, God sinned as well). How do you explain that? Secondly, I find no verses stating that absolutism is true. We find predestination in the context of sending his elect to heaven one day, but that is it. What verse would you use in support of this belief of absolutism?

Yep. To use the terms from TULIP, that would be Irresistible Grace (God’s grace does what it sets out to do, i.e. the elect will receive that grace and be saved)

Uhh…I also believe in the TULIP, and the way you stated Irresistible Grace(IG) is right, but that does not answer the question. As you said, IG is God calling us from death to life when we are born again, and we can not deny that. However, that does not mean we will do as we should and belief in His word and follow His statues. An example of this is some guy in Africa who is born again and yet lives His whole life in ignorant unbelief and sin because he doesn’t have access to the bible or preaching. Another example is a man who is born again, but is just stubborn, and won’t listen to the bible or preaching even if he does have access to them. That doesn’t mean God failed at calling him and borning him again, it just means he is a stubborn sinner. That was my point.

True salvation is permanent and cannot be lost; the Spirit remains at work in the lives of the saved, prompting them to repentance and good works.

I agree with that statement so much, and yet I also disagree in what you consider the doctrine of perseverance. I belief that the p in tulip is Preservation, meaning those God chooses and calls will never fall from  His hand, His grace (exactly what you said). And yet, that does not mean they will persevere in good works. It does mean that the new man (the spirit of God in them) will prompt them to good works and to belief (as you said), but that doesn’t mean they will obey. Paul even talks about how he often disobeys God. He also talks at the end of Romans 8 about how nothing in the world, not even their own sin, can remove them from God’s grace. Thus we see that even though a person is born again (and might have even been a believer in works and speech at one time), that doesn’t mean they will continue in good works, it only means the spirit will continue to prompt them.

  • This reply was modified 2 weeks, 4 days ago by Noah Cochran.

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