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Reply To: New Discussion Threat For Theological Debate

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#142425
Noah Cochran
@noah-cochran

@this-is-not-an-alien

I wondered if the title was on purpose, it seemed like something you would do. 😄

What about Matthew 22:14, Matthew 22:10 and that whole parable? Mark 16:15, why do we preach if we don’t think we can bring others to be born again? John 9:35-41, if we have no grace and no salvation, no choice then we couldn’t be guilty we could only be animals incapable of sinning. John 10:16. John 15:22-24. Yes, only a few are chosen but all are called. Why does Jesus ask the people He heals for faith or if they want to be healed if they have no choice in receiving or not? Act 10:34? Romans 1:11? Sin can only be sin if we freely choose it, and if we’re incapable of anything else, would we say a rabid dog is a sinner condemned to hell?

First of all, what are you’re thoughts on the verses and points I made? How would you explain them?

Now, before I comment on Matt. 22, I’m going to go into something I should have at the beginning. You and your brother have been talking a lot about why one should do good, preach the gospel, repent, get baptized, preform the Eucharist, etc.., if it doesn’t get one to heaven. You have also made comments on how and why there is still sin in the world, or if God chooses his people, than why do they still sin (if I’m understanding your comments anyway, correct me if I’m wrong.). Well, here’s the answer: Temporal/timely salvation, and the Kingdom of Heaven(KoH). During this life, after one of the elect has been born again through God’s sovereign power and love (nothing to do with human works,  like preaching or accepting or repenting, see Eph. 2), that individual is now a dual nature creature, meaning they still have the flesh that used to have completely control over them (total depravity, see Rom. 3 and 1 Cor. 2:14), but now they also have the spirit, the ability to please God. Now you ask, why would they please God? What do they get? What’s the point?  The answers are simple: They can be saved in a timely since from the consequences of sin, and enjoy the KoH here on earth (KoH is basically a taste and substance of what heaven is like). If a dual nature man acts according to the principles in the bible, does good works, joins the church, performs the ordiances, he will be saved. Saved from a life of wallowing in sin and guilt to a life feeling the love of God and blessings he showers upon those who obey Him. Side note, but many (actually most) places in the bible are talking about this type of salvation (which just means deliverance), not the eternal kind. This is difficult for some people to grasp, but pretend you read the sentences: “Serve me, read my word, and you will be delivered.” or “I nearly fell off a cliff, but a man told me that I was nearing the edge, and I was saved.” In the first example, the question is, delivered from what? Most Armenians and Catholics would not think that meant eternal salvation because the word saved wasn’t used, but if you switched it to the word saved, they would then think it mean eternal salvation. The second sentence is a prime example of what the preaching of how the preaching of the gospel saves us. It doesn’t save us to eternal glory (that would be a work of man getting someone to heaven), it saves us from ignorance, ignorance of what God has done for us, and ignorance of how we can change are ways and feel the love of God in our life. Here is a wonderful example of how the gospel can save someone: A man once had great debt. Then another man paid it off, wrote down what he had done in a book, but didn’t tell the beneficiary. Thus, the beneficiary no longer had that debt, but he didn’t know  he didn’t have that debt, thus it was till a burden to him. Then a third man came and told the beneficiary what had happend, and showed him the written prove. This revelation saved the man from the ignorance that was crushing him, and revealed the wonderful news of what the benefactor had done. The benefactor is God, the debt is sin, the third man is a preacher or evangelist, and the first man/beneficiary is a dead sinner that became a dual nature man.

As for Matt. 22 specifically, that parable is talking about timely salvation. Those who act according to the statues (puts on the wedding garment) that bible teaches, they will be allowed into the kingdom of heaven, to a place where God is pleased with them (the kingdom of heaven is many things, and is often the church, but always remember that it is not eternal salvation). When is says “For many are called, but few are chosen,” that means of all the elect and born again (the called), only few served God and are chosen to be in the KoH in this life. In other words, few become the chosen by choosing to serve God and act according to his statues.

I hope I explained this clearly, please ask clarify questions if you have any. 🙂

Sin can only be sin if we freely choose it, and if we’re incapable of anything else, would we say a rabid dog is a sinner condemned to hell?

I’m a little confused…xD A rapid dog does not have the conscious soul like a human, I can say that much.

Before you knock it, please, why is there sin if God just chooses people to be saved or left to be damned? If God hates people who are evil, why are they still on earth instead of straight to Hell? And if we are partially predestined to ‘in the end’ either be of the elect or the damned and there’s no choice to it at all, why aren’t the elect simply taken to Heaven? I mean there’s no point to being on earth if the good can’t help the bad and the bad can’t break the good, it’d be nothing but a psycho ant farm. And if God is Love, how can He hate?

There is sin because not all are elected, and even the elected and born again ones are still sinners, but now they are sinners that can also bear fruits of the spirit (duel natured creature). As for why God doesn’t just send his elect to heaven and his non-elect to hell, their are two equally important answers: One, for His glory. Our God is a jealous God, who wants use to love and serve Him during this life. He loves to see us honor His word, shine as a light, and follow his statues, this gives Him glory, glory he infinitely deserves. Two, we cannot know the mind of God outside of what is explicitly revealed in His word, and to pretend otherwise is arrogance (not saying that you are or anything, just stating fact).  Questions like “why doesn’t God just take us to heaven and send the non-elect to hell,” is like the question “why did God even create us in the first place?” We won’t know in this life, and we may never fully understand, but we do know it brings Him glory. Also, God hating people with a righteous anger is fully justified, and is something He can do even though He is a God of love. In our fallen, totally depraved nature, we hated God. Hated Him, despised Him, thought of Him as nothing. We sinned against Him.  For God to hate that sin and depredation is not sin, it is indignation. As I heard an elder say last weekend at a meeting, the real question isn’t why God hated Esau, it’s why did God love Jacob? Again, we do not know the mind of God, we do not know why he chose one and not the other. But the one who created us and could kill all of us with a thought and it wouldn’t be sin, can and does do as he pleases. We cannot, and should not try to treat God like a finite, human being. Oh, and Luke 14:26 is talking about putting everything, including family if it gets in the way, aside and following him. It is an alienating hate, not a sinful hate. And it is a hate from humans, so I’m not sure that applies to anything here.

I have another question for you Cathy, as I we rap up some of our other major subjects. Why do you believe in baptism by sprinkling? In fact, using the word “baptism” and “sprinkling” in the same sentence is kinda a paradox. Baptism means to immerse, and is a symbol of Jesus going into the ground in death and coming out again in victory over death and sin. In addition to this, all the examples found in the bible are by immersion, so why biblically unprecedented sprinkling?

As for the Peter = Pope controversy verse, here is the full verse: “And I say also unto thee, That though art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”

He is saying that Peter is Peter, but He, Jesus, is the foundation of the church. In Matt. 16:20, a couple verse later in the same context, it says: “Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.”

Why would Jesus say that if the context was talking about Peter’s great responsibility? It wouldn’t. Jesus says that because He was talking about himself.

Lol, that sounds neat! Hugon’s been an interesting character in Character Castle 2.0 and historically accurate medieval settings are awesome!!! You’ll have to tell me when it’s published, or if I can beta read! (:

Glad my writing is readable, I’ll keep you in mind for beta reading. 🙂

 


@r-m-archer

You’re welcome to join in the fun. 🙂

To be completely fair, this is something that I have struggled with more than once. And I solidly believe in predestination. So I understand the struggle here. 😛 But here’s the thing. Without sin, we can’t understand grace. Without separation from God, we can’t understand salvation. Without fear and hate, we can’t understand love and peace. Without injustice, justice is meaningless. The contrast of a fallen world with a glorious God is necessary to our understanding of His character. And we still have to come to an understanding of God in our own way. He chooses us, not the other way around, but He does reveal Himself in ways that He knows will connect with us personally. He designed us; He knows how to reach us. And those unique personal experiences with Him are part of what build and strengthen our relationship with Him. But again, they have to have something to contrast with.

You should read my response to Cathy on this subject if you would like to see my view, I ain’t typing it up again, to hard. xD

Except we’re dead. Dead people can’t apply for anything. We have to be given life first.

I loved this. xD Just about actually laughed out loud. This is exactly right.

No offense to you @rusted-knight, just a fun conversation. 🙂

Why?

Only ordained elders/bishops can administer the ordiances, as seen in the bible.

The thief on the cross.

Oh, I believe that it is evidence that he was saved as well, but that was not the context Cathy and her brother were talking in.

Two questions for you Miss Archer:

First, do you believe in the absolute predestination of all things?

Two, do you believe that all the elect will  believe the truth of the gospel and perform good works throughout their life? Do you believe they will persevere in these good works?

Great discussions everyone! 🙂

 

 

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