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Reply To: New Discussion Threat For Theological Debate

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#142346
R.M. Archer
@r-m-archer

So bishops and priests have different tasks and “jurisdictions” if you will.

This makes some sense.

To begin with deacons are people vowed to celibacy

Why celibacy, when deacons are described as married men in 1 Timothy 3?

Passover was a big deal and only priests could perform the sacrifice

That seems like a Pharisaical addition to the law. The Passover, as biblically instructed, was the responsibility of the heads of households.

But the point is, the entire universe cried out at Christ’s Death

That’s really cool!

But if Jesus is the “new manna” and the old manner truly was miraculous and very real supernatural bread from heaven how could Christ be less then in a very real and literal sense Bread from Heaven?

Because the New Covenant is a spiritual fulfillment of the Old Covenant. We don’t circumcise anymore because we now experience circumcision of the heart in a spiritual sense. Jesus as the “new manna” is no less miraculous and supernatural; He fills and satisfies us like the manna filled and satisfied the Israelites in the desert. Now, it is interesting that there are so many references to a consumption of Christ and I think that bears further study (what would that mean in a spiritual sense?), but I still think it’s a metaphor. One that ought to be taken seriously according to its character as metaphor rather than simile—implying it was to be a very close comparison—but still metaphor. We’re also told we don’t live on bread alone, but on the Word of God (interestingly enough, Jesus was the Word, which wouldn’t have been nearly so meaningful when that passage was first introduced in Deuteronomy), which is evidently a spiritual satisfaction rather than physical. There are similar metaphors equating Jesus with water, but we understand them to be metaphor. What makes the bread different?

A person who neither receives the Sacraments or strives to please God during his or her life yet turns to God at the last instant of life, we believe is saved. Why exactly? This directly contradicts all of the other doctrines you have presented, and searching through the bible, I can’t seem to find anything that even hints at a thing like this.

The thief on the cross.

The doctrine of Total Depravity means that we cannot receive the things of God or please him no matter what, until he save us. Take this verse (1 Cor. 2:14): “But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” The natural man is the Adam man, the man who is totally dead from original sin. Thus, something has to happen to this natural man in order for him to even want to receive baptism or the sacraments, or to, as you put it, “strive to please God.” Other verses: Rom. 3:9-20, Rom. 8:1-8. Here is the question for you: How does this naturally dead and totally depraved man get to a state where he even wants to please God or do good works?

Oh hey. This sounds Calvinist. XD I agree with this point completely.

Here is what I believe it is: We all became spiritually dead to all things of goodness and God when Adam fell. But, those who God chose before the foundations of the world, will become born again during this life, that is how they become spiritually alive, instead of spiritually dead and depraved. After they are born again, they can begin to do good works, and desire to be baptized and receive the sacraments (they can pretend to do those things when they are dead, but that would just be for the eyes of men). Thus, good works, believing on Him, and performing baptism and the ordinances for the right reasons are evidences of being born again.

Ditto.

A person CANNOT just preform the Lord’s Supper. Only ordained priests and bishops can do that.

Why?

Yes. Mary had no sin. Read Exodus. The detail God gives Moses in making the Ark of the Covenant and Sanctuary is extraordinary. Mary is the New Ark of the Covenant. She held the living Jesus inside her for nine months. Can you imagen the detail and purity she had compared to the old Ark? This is why he was taken up to Heaven body and soul. Just like the Ark of the Covenant.

Given how much of the Old Covenant is directly compared to its fulfillment in the New, I find this comparison questionable. Nowhere in the Bible does it compare Mary to the Ark of the Covenant. Nor does it say she was without sin, nor does it say she was “taken up” rather than simply dying, unlike any other occasions of divine intervention as with Enoch and Elijah. So I have a lot of trouble believing that this view of Mary is accurate.

God invites us to Him. Its like a job interview. Sitting around ain’t going to get the job. Trying to apply is not going to guarantee a hire but continuing to try will help. God will decide who enters Heaven and who does not. But we have to do our part if we want the ticket in.

Except we’re dead. Dead people can’t apply for anything. We have to be given life first.

Predestination is false and the reason is very simple. If God is merciful enough to die for us, would he intentionally cut off people before they even have a chance to prove themselves? It seems rather contradictory.

If God is just and cannot endure sin, why does He choose to save any of us? The fact that any of us are saved is proof of His mercy. He doesn’t cut off; we’re already cut off. He reaches out and reconnects.

If God hates people who are evil, why are they still on earth instead of straight to Hell? And if we are partially predestined to ‘in the end’ either be of the elect or the damned and there’s no choice to it at all, why aren’t the elect simply taken to Heaven?

To be completely fair, this is something that I have struggled with more than once. And I solidly believe in predestination. So I understand the struggle here. 😛 But here’s the thing. Without sin, we can’t understand grace. Without separation from God, we can’t understand salvation. Without fear and hate, we can’t understand love and peace. Without injustice, justice is meaningless. The contrast of a fallen world with a glorious God is necessary to our understanding of His character. And we still have to come to an understanding of God in our own way. He chooses us, not the other way around, but He does reveal Himself in ways that He knows will connect with us personally. He designed us; He knows how to reach us. And those unique personal experiences with Him are part of what build and strengthen our relationship with Him. But again, they have to have something to contrast with.

You say God doesn’t love Satan or sinners, but we’re told to love sinners, to love all souls.

We’re humans without knowledge of who may or may not be saved. We have a limited view and are called to operate accordingly. God is the Creator and Arbiter of the universe, and Scripture says that love of the world is enmity with God (James 4:4) and that we are enemies of God before we’re saved (Romans 5, Romans 8). God sees the whole picture and He can operate according to that complete view, while we cannot because our view is not yet complete.

But if we’re to do good to those who hate us who benefits from that if God hates them just as much as we struggle not to?

The other side of the coin is that God endures with longsuffering those “created for destruction.” (Romans 9:20-24)

Why would it even be for our characters if we have no choice in our salvation or lack thereof?

Yes. Because our character is developed due to our salvation, not for our salvation. Our character grows as we strive to be more like Christ, until we come to full spiritual maturity (or as near as we can get before Heaven). Kind of getting into what you asked about “why aren’t we all sent to either Heaven or Hell right away?” again… God created Earth on purpose. He created Earth and made mankind stewards over it. That stewardship is now the responsibility of His Church, and we must have Christ-like character in order to be faithful stewards of that calling. His Kingdom is not limited to Heaven; His will is to be done on Earth as it is in Heaven. His Kingdom is a spiritual reality overlapping with a physical world.

Lol, it wasn’t a typo.😇

Seems pretty fitting. I approve. XD

Fantasy/dystopian/sci-fi author. Mythology nerd. Worldbuilding enthusiast. Singer. Fan of classic literat

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