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Reply To: New Discussion Threat For Theological Debate

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#142209
Rusted Knight
@rusted-knight

@noah-cochran
I am a Catholic and retired altar boy so I have some answers

In regard to Transubstantiation, I’ll just say a couple things. I went through and read John 6 as well as the account of the Lord’s Supper in 1 Cor. 11. There are two things I want to point out: One, John 6 was written before and completely disconnected from the Lord’s Supper, meaning that the two are not connected (not directly that is). Two, in John 6, it states that (and I’m paraphrasing, so go read it) he that eateth my body and drinketh my blood will have everlasting life. If one was to take this verse as the Lord’s Supper, then was they would essentially be saying is that if a person performs the Lord’s Supper, they are going to heaven. For instance, Stalin walks into church, performs the Lord’s Supper, and walla, he is saved to eternal salvation. I’m not seeing it. What John 6 is talking about is more evidence that someone is a child of God, that evidence being if they feast and drink on him through enjoying his grace (and other things, such as believing). Finally, I just don’t see where you are getting the specific doctrine of Transubstantiation. Nowhere in the bible does it seem that they are eating actual flesh, or drinking actual blood, it is a symbol of what Jesus has done for us when he died at the cross (as 1 Cor. 11 states), and to be frank, I don’t understand why transubstantiation was conjured up, it really doesn’t effect any of your beliefs, you could believe what I do (that it is a symbol and done in remembrance) and it wouldn’t change anything. I mean, you do believe that you have to perform the sacraments/ordinances (at least in most cases it seems), to go to heaven, but that still has nothing to do with Transubstantiation.

First. Transubstantiation is VERY REAL. Jesus himself says in Luke 22 verse 19-20 “And He took bread, and when He had given thanks broke it and gave it to them, saying, ‘This is my body which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.’ And likewise the chalice after supper, saying, ‘This chalice which is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.'” This is backed up by more than 70 confirmed <b>miracles</b> in which The Eucharist is turned into real heart flesh with real AB type blood. The earliest record of these miracles is 595 in Italy and the most recent being 2013 in Poland. The samples taken from ALL these Hosts show evidence of quote “human heart muscle with alterations that often appear during the agony.” Type AB blood is significant because samples of the same blood are found in the Shroud of Turin.

Second. A person CANNOT just preform the Lord’s Supper. Only ordained priests and bishops can do that. A person cut off from the church by mortal sin or official excommunication (Mortal sin and certain actions automatically excommunicate one) cannot receive Communion. Doing so makes the person doubly guilty.

Church Hierarchy and Institution: I’m not going to say much about this, but I will say that all of your examples were derived from inferences that are slightly arbitrary. xD The way we set up church is by only doing what the bible specifically shows us. That is elders/bishops (same thing), Deacons (to help those in the church that are in need among other things), and the congregation. The way elders/bishops or ordained is by the laying on of hands of other elders, there is no special bishops, priests, or cardinals found. As for the pope, I’m still a little confused on what verse you use and why, but since I’ve heard some people say that catholics use the verse “upon this rock I will build my church” (Jesus speaking to Peter), I say something about that. In that verse, Jesus is not talking to Peter, he is talking about himself to Peter (i.e, Jesus is saying that He is the rock, and upon Himself, He will build His church).

Catholic ordaining requires the laying on of hands as was dictated in the Gospel. as for the Gospel quote, it comes from Matthew 16: 18 and in its entirety reads “And I tell you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church.” The Greek word used for Peter is Petros the masculine form of “Rock”. Jesus is telling Peter he will be fundamental in the church as he continues in verse 19. “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” Jesus is very specifically giving power to Peter over what He will build.

Why exactly? This directly contradicts all of the other doctrines you have presented, and searching through the bible, I can’t seem to find anything that even hints at a thing like this. But I’m sure you have a verse you use, so just let me know what it is so I can take a look at it.

Ok. This is tricky waters. Scientifically speaking, if the heart stops, the brain’s activities will continue for about five minutes give or take. That sound like plenty of time to go over your life and chose to recognize God. Also the problem is being looked at upside down. By saying that you can only recognize God in life because he will only show himself to you in life sounds like one is trying to put limits on a limitless Being.

By “strive to please God,” I assume you’re inferring that they can make as many mistakes as they want, but they have to try to do better everytime and confess major sins to a confessor. Correct?

Close. Humans are not perfect. We make mistakes. General Patton said it best. “I don’t measure a man’s success by how high he climbs but how high he bounces when he hits bottom.” We on earth are the Church Militant. We are at war with the Devil and his forces in a war. We get hit. We get back up and push forward. That is how we do better.

Okay, so yes, I should have mentioned Original Sin. When Adam fell (sinned), we fell with him (original sin), and became totally depraved. But after reading what you wrote about how to attain eternal salvation, it does not appear that you believe in Total Depravity. The doctrine of Total Depravity means that we cannot receive the things of God or please him no matter what, until he save us. Take this verse (1 Cor. 2:14): “But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” The natural man is the Adam man, the man who is totally dead from original sin. Thus, something has to happen to this natural man in order for him to even want  to receive baptism or the sacraments, or to, as you put it, “strive to please God.” Other verses: Rom. 3:9-20, Rom. 8:1-8. Here is the question for you: How does this naturally dead and totally depraved man get to a state where he even wants to please God or do good works? Here is what I believe it is: We all became spiritually dead to all things of goodness and God when Adam fell. But, those who God chose before the foundations of the world, will become born again during this life, that is how they become spiritually alive, instead of spiritually dead and depraved. After  they are born again, they can begin to do good works, and desire to be baptized and receive the sacraments (they can pretend to do those things when they are dead, but that would just be for the eyes of men). Thus, good works, believing on Him, and performing baptism and the ordinances for the right reasons are evidences of being born again.

This idea is founded on a single issue that has permeated throughout Christianity. THE GOSPEL CANNOT BE PICKED APART AND SELECTIVLY READ. St. Paul is saying that without God we are nothing. Without God we have not purpose in life. We are walking dead until we accept God and let His Spirit guide us. Look at rich atheists. They will spend their life, their fortune, their health even trying to fill the void that only God can fill. God has not picked out a select few. Jesus himself said that the path was narrow. He calls all. It is up to us to pick up the cross and stay on the path.

Uh, no. xD First off, are you saying that Mary had no sin in her? Or that she was automatically saved?

Yes. Mary had no sin. Read Exodus. The detail God gives Moses in making the Ark of the Covenant and Sanctuary is extraordinary. Mary is the New Ark of the Covenant. She held the living Jesus inside her for nine months. Can you imagen the detail and purity she had compared to the old Ark? This is why he was taken up to Heaven body and soul. Just like the Ark of the Covenant.

The Devil saw me with my head down and got excited. Then I said Amen

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