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#135781
Cathy
@this-is-not-an-alien

Could either of these verses be what you were thinking of? 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: [Ephesians 4:12 KJV] 1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. [2 Corinthians 7:1 KJV]

No, I was reading through the contexts of all the verses you quoted. Then looking through the verses most Catholics cite for purgatory. Then looking at them side by side, then all together the whole of both Christian and Catholic teaching and the whole of the Bible 😉
To answer your first question about the thief who stole Paradise I need to get to the heart of what Catholics believe about purgatory. One common misconception even in Catholic circles is that EVERYONE must go through purgatory to reach Heaven. This is not so. Rather it is in the measure that one failed to love and to believe in Christ that one must be purified either in this life or the next. One is saved once and for all in Jesus Christ if one believes in Him and turns to Him in their heart. But we don’t turn to Him completely, we’re always rejecting Him with sin and coming back again but not completely. Now God said the faith of a mustard seed can move mountains but He also said faith without works is dead (James 1: 5-8, James 2: 14-26).
He also says the prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects (James 5:16), but I don’t understand why He would say that if all prayer has the same power and all faith is equal. But if someone can pray without being righteous, but only the righteous are in Heaven, then is it enough to accept without accepting truly? But if one doesn’t accept truly is he damned?
Christ offered once and for all, yet we are His Body and shouldn’t His Body be perfect? If we can’t believe perfectly are we not saved? But imperfect belief is better than none at all still. But Christ said to be perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect.
I’d like to start with the verses you used before I cite my own:
1. Isaiah 26:18-21; I started reading carefully through the whole thing, along with each of the verses you set up, this morning. I understand the verse to refer both to Christ’s Death and Resurrection as well as the Day of Judgement and this was fulfilled and will be.
But at the same time 1 Timothy 2:12-13 says “if we endure, we will also reign with Him; if we deny Him, He also will deny use; if we are faithless, He remains faithful–for He cannot deny Himself.” Then there is an imperfection which Christ forgives even without that faith. If He had His Son die for us, for our sins rather than waving His Hand and forgiving us, and He says we are saved through faith, then faithlessness must be punished? Yet in His Mercy He won’t allow it to be forever, but even if we die with imperfect faith, turning but not reaching, He will accept us. But wouldn’t His Justice require in the same manner that soul to be perfected, if not in this life then the next?
In Colossians 1:24, Paul says “Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of His Body, that is, the Church,”. In Baptism we believe God takes away the Original Sin of Adam and Eve and clearly there can’t be anything “lacking” in Christ’s afflictions. So, it seems to me to mean that individuals must still reconcile themselves to Christ by faith, faith show through works.
In the same we believe in confessing our sins in the Sacrament of Confession because Matthew 16:18-19 and John 20:21-23 seem to indicate Christ gave His Apostles the power and authority to forgive sins in His Name. It just doesn’t seem to make sense for His commands there to be necessary if once one is saved one is always saved and nothing can prevent it. If we are either good or bad there’s no need for sins to be forgiven, if in faith we become perfect then why do we still sin and repent of our sins if not that our faith is imperfect and must be purified?
2. Hosea 13:14; That verse I’d heard in 1 Corinthians 15 too so I went to see the New Testament interpretation. One verse that really struck me there was 15:50 “I tell you this, brethren: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.” Now the context was Paul explaining the resurrection of the body, that all must die to be raised and the string of death is sin and the power of sin is the law but God gives us victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Earlier, all of chapter 13 there, he talks about what love is and “when the perfect comes, the imperfect will pass away.”
Back to Hosea it really speaks of punishment “Samar’ia shall bear her guilt, because she has rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword, their little ones shall be dashed into pieces, and their pregnant women ripped open” (…*trying not to compare that to uh…yeah, modern times* nevermind XD). But then Hosea 14 is very forgiving after punishment.
But afterwards. Paul said that faith and hope would pass away love only would remain. Now “passing away” sounds gentle but Hosea screams violence first and if love only remains, shouldn’t we be purified of what isn’t love? If “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God” we as Christians are transformed by God’s grace but “in the measure you sow shall it be given back to you.”
Yet God tells us to “be perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect”. In Matthew 5:25-26 He says “Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.” The word for “prison” (phulake) here is the same word used when Christ descended to the dead and raised them. And He says you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.
Faith without works is dead (James 5-8, James 2: 14-26) thus if you believe in Christ–have faith–you must because of this faith be perfect because your faith is shown in works. In Mathew 5: 17-18 Jesus says “For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.”
So I believe imperfect faith must be purified, and if our faith is imperfect here it must be made perfect either in this life or the next.

Ugh! I don’t have time today to finish answering, I’m sorry for the delay. I should’ve spoken more clearly when I said I needed time I must’ve sounded like I was dismissing you because I couldn’t answer, I’m sorry. Thank you so much for challenging me, it forces me to articulate my thoughts and look at my beliefs from a fresh perspective and really motivates me to search and study more and to not just take things for what I’ve been told all my life. It really makes me feel alive to argue and exchange ideas and learn.
Please don’t let me get so into it I frustrate you! I really don’t get frustrated arguing and I can’t gauge well how my words effect people. I learn things best when I’m arguing them and…well, I do want to learn more and grow.

I do that exact thing. My Tom Clancy novels were always “sanitized” by the time I read through them. You know, I found out that I did not miss a single thing EVER when I re-read through every sentence and omitted the blacked-out word. It is total pointless to be profane.  Every emotion can be rendered without resorting to gutter talk.

Oh I read a Tom Clancy before, it was like the Briefcase or something. (unless I’m confusing my authors again 😆) Weren’t half bad but yeah the language adds nothing to the emotional depth, just wastes ink.

Don't let the voices in your head drive you insane;only some of them can drive; most are underage

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